electrolysis, HHO intake charge

[statultra]

i was reading about these water for gas modifications people are doing, somehow a news van was able to improve their gas mileage from 9.3 mpg to 23 mpg, big difference, although i think its a gimmick i have a couple of PVC pipes and caps and i think i may try it.

what it is, is really a tank with water and two electrodes from 12 volt power, produces hydrogen and a hose carries the gas to a bubbler and the hydrogen bubbles floats to the top of the bubbler, and into the air intake of the car, burning gas cleaner, as they say..

i am gonna attempt it and report any gains, if it works ( 01 prius ) im going to install it on the new prius, and my upcoming accord hybrid.
im aiming for at least 10 mpg improvement

[bwilson4web]

Do you have an MPG baseline?

What is your MPG measurement protocol, by tank, by measure distance and MFD?

Will you do an A-B-A test?

Have you considered putting the system on a portable generator and running endurance tests? A $600-800 generator would be a lot easier to modify and test than a $25k Prius.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

[bbald123]

Electrolysis of water requires the same amount of energy as the resulting hydrogen and oxygen contain. So, if your power is coming from the car, electrolysis CANNOT provide a mileage boost. In fact, due to thermodynamic losses, your mileage MUST decline.

If you don't believe me, the thermodynamics are well explained here

I've quoted below for those who don't want to click through. Also, note that these numbers are for an electrolysis/fuel cell combination. Numbers for internal combustion engines are significantly worse.

"So in the electrolysis/fuel cell pair where the enthalpy change is 285.8 kJ, you have to put in 237 kJ of energy to drive electrolysis and the heat from the environment will contribute TΔS=48.7 kJ to help you. Going the other way in the fuel cell, you can get out the 237 kJ as electric energy, but have to dump TΔS = 48.7 kJ to the environment"

[Hobbs]

Originally Posted by bbald123

Electrolysis of water requires the same amount of energy as the resulting hydrogen and oxygen contain. So, if your power is coming from the car, electrolysis CANNOT provide a mileage boost. In fact, due to thermodynamic losses, your mileage MUST decline.

The only time the system would provide a milage boost is when the battery is nearly full and without it, the engine would spin or pads on disc heating would dump the energy.

[qbee42]

You are wasting your time. This idea is pure snake oil. A search of this forum will produce several previous threads about this topic.

Tom

[dogfriend]

Originally Posted by qbee42

You are wasting your time. This idea is pure snake oil. A search of this forum will produce several previous threads about this topic.

Tom

I'm thinking of starting a web site advertising snake oil as a mileage boosting additive:

"Dogfriend's Snake Oil Mileage Booster"

110% Pure Snake Oil. Don't be fooled by the competitors that are only part Snake Oil - This is the Real Thing.

Gain Up To 200% Mileage Improvement*























* Of course, "up to" clearly includes values between 0 - 200

[jayman]

This was also posted over at the FJ forum. Given the credibility - should I say LACK of credibility - of the media, why should I suspend all disbelief and engineering to want to believe in magic, hookus-pookus, and the tooth fairy?

Just changing your driving habits can account for a huge mileage difference. For example, the driver was leadfooted before, then with new-found concern about fuel economy, was babying the vehicle.

I've said it before and will say it again: whether magic snake oil, magnets wrapped around the fuel line, secret +100% efficient H2 generators, whatever, I want to see a carefully controlled lab test run with an engine dynometer

If this crap really worked, GM would buy as many as they could in an effort to sell their full size trucks. They're drowing in red ink, if such crap worked that alone could turn their fortunes around

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by jayman

<snip>If this crap really worked, GM would buy as many as they could in an effort to sell their full size trucks. They're drowing in red ink, if such crap worked that alone could turn their fortunes around

Ah, but that's just it. It's a conspiracy.

Tom

[dogfriend]

Originally Posted by jayman

If this crap really worked, GM would buy as many as they could in an effort to sell their full size trucks. They're drowing in red ink, if such crap worked that alone could turn their fortunes around

Yep, expanding on this theme: Why wouldn't Chrysler use something like this to improve the ghastly mileage of their Dodge "Hemi" pickup trucks? Instead of discounting them thousands of dollars in an attempt to move them off the lots so they can build more for next year.

If this worked, why wouldn't Toyota use it to improve the mileage of the Prius? They designed a lot of relatively expensive hardware (MG1, MG2, battery, inverter, etc.) to lower emissions and improve FE by approx 2x compared to a similar sized car. If the HHO thing worked, they could have just modified a standard 4cyl Camry with a mason jar and some vinyl tubing under the hood to suck HHO into the intake manifold. Wouldn't that be a lot easier and cheaper for them?

It doesn't make physical sense and it doesn't make financial sense either.

[bredekamp]

Don't waste your time. You've been blinded by "bogus" science.