Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries charge up in seconds

[ronhowell]

Originally Posted by DaveinOlyWA

that is one way to look at the issue and its most likely the wrong way...

battery tech should only have to come half way, the rest is up to us. we need to face that facts that we need to do a very hard evaluation of exactly what is important to us and to be honest with ya, something that has a 300 mile range is not that important to me when compared to the issues tied to our ignorance of what we are doing to our planet...

heck, even a dog does not sh** in its bed. cant we at least be that smart??

Dave you really don't have to remind me of that. Efficient use of the energy we do use is equally, if not more, important. IMHO America still suffers from the "cornocopia syndrome" prevalent when the New World opened up a vast new continent with what appeared to be unlimited resources. Consequently, everything got super-sized, houses, cars, TVs ... you name it. It is the American Way!

Now we are beginning to realize that Earth's resources we've been consuming with profligate abandon for 200+ years are starting to show signs of depletion. US oil production peaked back in 1971 and is now down to some 60% of the peak (Alaska notwithstanding). We have double the per-capita energy consumption of most other industrialized countries, so there is much more we can do on the consumption front.
All I was trying to illustrate was the reason why oil and it's derivatives power the industrialized world. It packs energy into a small, convenient, easily portable space. Getting off dependence on it will be long, expensive and difficult.

[DaveinOlyWA]

any change is difficult and this is a major change. but it has to be done. the cost should never have been an issue, because the alternative is much more costlier. short sighted, self-centered, profiteering is what has destroyed our common sense so much that we still choose excuses while doom looms over us...

ya, call me chicken little if you want...what does it matter?

[FL_Prius_Driver]

Originally Posted by ronhowell

....Much of this gas energy of course gets lost in producing motive power to the wheels; still, the comparison does illustrate how far battery storage has to progress to be competitive.

In isolation that statement is very true. The other side of the coin is that we make our vehicles so incredible heavy (3000 lbs) to haul around 200 lbs. If the goal is sustainable transportation, what we have now is capable of a huge fraction of our transportation needs and the problem really is not weak batteries.

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by ronhowell

as an energy storage medium, batteries or any electrical equivalent have a long way to go to get anywhere close to the energy that is stored in gasoline, whether measured by volume or by weight.

I don't think anybody needs reminding of that. But I don't see the relevance. Yes, gasoline is energy dense. We also throw 80% of it away when we burn it in an automobile. If it were free and safe to use, I'd be all for it! But there are many more important factors here than energy density.

still, the comparison does illustrate how far battery storage has to progress to be competitive.

Here's a neat statistic. My Rav4EV holds the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline in energy equivalent. I can travel 120 miles on that "tank." The battery I'm using was developed for the 1996 model year. Gasoline emissions have killed hundreds of thousands of people. My solar-charged batteries have killed nobody. This demonstrates how far gasoline has to go to be competitive in this way.

Originally Posted by ronhowell

Getting off dependence on it will be long, expensive and difficult.

It doesn't have to be any of these things if we decide to do it for real. Making that decision is the hardest part. Expensive and difficult (and deadly) is what we face by staying stuck to oil.

[Fibb222]

Considering the external costs that most people ignore and the fact that oil is heavily subsidized (by much of the US military budget and favourable tax treatment) getting off oil won't be very expensive.

Better Place can build all the necessary EV infrastructure for your entire nation for 100 billion (equals 2 months of foreign oil imports) and for another 400 billion all the electricity generation in the USA (including for transport) can be made clean / renewable.

So you can have another year of oil imports or you can build a renewable energy/ EV infrastructure that will last for decades. Seems like a no-brainer. Now if we could just get our heads out of our asses.

I don't see this rapid charging battery as adding anything for transportation. The grid can't provide power that fast, and with a proper EV infrastructure, it won't be necessary anyway.

Check out this video: http://www.betterplace.com/press-roo...r-wired-scien/

At time 19:50 mark Shai Agassi explains how "a miracle battery solves no problem". But I of course recommend the entire video if you want to get educated.

[ronhowell]

Originally Posted by darelldd

It doesn't have to be any of these things if we decide to do it for real. Making that decision is the hardest part. Expensive and difficult (and deadly) is what we face by staying stuck to oil.

You are absolutely correct, Darrell. I am not disputing the importance of getting off dependence on oil. The Shah of Iran was once quoted as saying that "oil is too valuable a commodity to burn". In my opinion he was right. Unfortunately our entire way of life has been fashioned around the use of oil or its derivatives, mostly by burning it, at a rate millions of times faster than Mother Nature created it. Moving to alternatives really requires a Manhattan Program level of commitment that is beyond the time-frame of political Washington.

The problem with electricity is that it is not contained within any naturally occurring substance. We haven't been able to store lightning, though Nature does create it. We have to create electricity (currently from fossil fuels), then store it. While storage will always be a problem, I still believe that after conservation, direct solar conversion and breeder-reactor nuclear power hold the best hopes for our energy future. Successfully harnessing nuclear fusion would obviously be the ultimate holy grail for energy, since that, after all, is the source of all solar power.

Just what we will use for our aviation fleet however I have no idea. When gas gets too expensive, maybe we'll all just go by sail or electric boat!

[jayman]

Originally Posted by qbee42

The smart charger on our boat has that built-in. Our current house battery is a decade old, where many boat owners only get a season or two from a battery.

More upfront cost for that technology, but longterm the gains in lifespan and performance make it worthwhile

[patsparks]

Originally Posted by zcat3

The problem to be solved, then, is not how fast the battery can take a charge but how fast the charge can be delivered. Even with a 220V connection at 50 amps, you are only talking 11 kWh per hour. So for a full range EV with say a 50 kWh battery, it is still 5 hours to charge (this is essentially the specs for the Tesla). In order to transfer 50 kWh in a few minutes you would need one hell of an electrical connection.

Solved.
A second battery or bank of batteries to charge slowly ready for plug-in then deliver quickly at charge-up time to charge the vehicle battery.

[ronhowell]

Quote from Toyota Technology Review: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/envi...rid/index.html

"Research and Development for Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles

· Plug-in hybrid vehicle batteries can be recharged at home using off-peak electricity.
· Over short distances it runs as an EV (electrical vehicle); over longer distances it runs as a normal hybrid vehicle.
· Benefits: reduction in CO2 emissions, possible reduction in fuel costs, quiet operation during EV drive, and no need for new charging facilities.
· To provide 60km electric drive range would require about 12-times the battery capacity of the current Prius.
· There are many challenges concerning battery technology, such as creating a revolutionary battery for passenger vehicles that is smaller, lighter, and more powerful."

[nameless dude]

What about Lithium-Titanate?

Lithium-titanate battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EnerDel?s Lithium-Titanate Battery Equipped Toyota Prius Gets 77mpg