Cash4Clunkers main website update

[Jabber]

Originally Posted by jangell2

How long does it typically take for the dealer to find out that the clunker has been accepted or rejected. Is there a potential for the dealer to actually junk my jeep and than find it's been rejected?

Dealers do not have to junk the car before submitting the rebate forms to the gov. We can wait until we get an approval now.

Originally Posted by urlyadoptr

The dealer took copies of my paperwork to submit for reimbursement, and gave the originals back to me, and I drove home in my clunker (which they were required to take possession of before submitting for reimbursement)....

That is why I asked if they took copies. A dealer cannot submit for money unless they incude a copy of the signed purchase agreement. Furthermore, I have to include a copy of the MCO (title on a new car). Therefore, if they submitted paperwork, they have a car in your name.

I hear your frustration, and understand exactly where you are coming from. But look at it from our side of the fence. Dianne mentions it in her post also. This whole program has been screwed up from the beginning. Dianne has about the same number of C4C deals as we do.. around 140 give or take. So, just 2 dealers out of 20,000 has over 1.1 million in money that we haven't collected on. In fact, we are getting applications back saying "rejected" and not even giving us a reason anymore. We have no idea why they are rejected. But it kindly says for us to please feel free to re-submit your application.

Imagine you are a business owner. Small dealerships are getting their bottom line killed right now. How are they supposed to protect themselves when the government can pull the plug any time they want? Without some sort of protection, a dealership stands to lose over $3,000 on every car they sold if they don't get funded. But we have the trade in, right? Yes, but it is a paper weight now. Luckily, my owner has enough money to ride out the time to get our money. You can bet there are alot of dealers that don't. Where are they supposed to get the money they need to buy used cars for their lots? Where are they supposed to get the money to buy replacement new cars?

Again, I don't agree with the way they are handling your situation, based on what you have told us. They should be much more diplomatic. However, no reputable business owner, that would like to stay in business, is going to give you a vehicle without some sort of protection. Unfortunately, the government has created this situation. And their rules (which by the way are completely unenforcable as the NHTSA has no legal jurisdiction over dealers) are just making it worse. It is creating an ill-feeling between consumers and dealers that is getting worse by the minute. And it isn't like consumers and dealers were best buddies to begin with

[urlyadoptr]

Originally Posted by Jabber

Again, I don't agree with the way they are handling your situation, based on what you have told us. They should be much more diplomatic. However, no reputable business owner, that would like to stay in business, is going to give you a vehicle without some sort of protection. Unfortunately, the government has created this situation. And their rules (which by the way are completely unenforcable as the NHTSA has no legal jurisdiction over dealers) are just making it worse. It is creating an ill-feeling between consumers and dealers that is getting worse by the minute. And it isn't like consumers and dealers were best buddies to begin with

I appreciate your comments. Clearly we're all frustrated. That's why I vent here, and when I talk to the dealer, I put on my game face! I made my "deal" (such as it is) the day after the $2B in additional funding was approved. If dealers were so concerned about their risk exposure, I still contend they should have ceased writing new C4C deals instead of playing with the rules, and being less then fully forthcoming with their approach to the program. I just can't get around the fact that the dealers are bound by law (enforceable or not) to follow the rules. What would happen next April if I chose to not pay my taxes because of the negative impact on my cash flow? You think the IRS is gonna cut me any slack? I would also feel a lot better knowing that there was an actual new car being held for me. I hope to resolve that, at least, when I talk to the dealership owner tomorrow (he did leave me a voicemail today, but I was tied up in a seminar all day and couldn't connect with him).

The crazy thing is, my "clunker" is worth at least $4,000 (it's not like a $200 junk car). Worst case, if they don't get reimbursed, they can take the trade, fix it up, and sell it retail for $6765 (acording to KB!! They actually come out ahead if they don't get reimbursed! Am I missing something here?? I would much rather see the gas guzzler get crushed, though. That's why I'm buying a Prius, after all!

16 mpg ----> 50 mpg.... yah, I qualify!

[TangaRed]

So what happens if they don't have the car on the lot. I've, done the CRC paperwork - and actually have a purchase agreement with a VIN number - however the dealer could not deliver the car. I am now waiting for them to find another deal to finish the deal.

Is my C4c valid if it takes a few weeks to find?

[jangell2]

Originally Posted by jonnypak5

thanks so much for useful info
website update

And thanks for clogging up the thread with useless posts, dummkopf! Hey I know another language too! Please.

[urlyadoptr]

Ok I wonder if anyone can answer this. If I decide to break the "deal" because the dealership isn't playing by the rules, but they've already submitted the documentation to DOT for reimbursement, can I go to another dealer that is playing by the rules? Or would their submittal be rejected because my old car is already in the system reported as a junked clunker? Once submitted, can a dealership pull a request for reimbursement?

What a mess!

[DeadPhish]

Originally Posted by DianneWhitmire

I don't know if it's that agreement is valid or not.

On that note, as a consumer and as a car person, I have a few thoughts.

If that agreement wasn't going to work for you, you shouldn't have signed it. I hope you understand that thought process in myself, as an adult and a mom who tries to teach the son responsibility and all that.

I don't know if it's enforceable. Might have been the thing to find out before signing it? I mean, if you signed the foim and agreed to the terms, then you agreed that they could enforce it. If you did it to get the car and now, you're backing out on it... it's just another term of their contract.

That's an entirely separate issue from the CARS program in that it's a separate agreement with the dealership. It may be against the CARS credo and agreement, so it may cause them grief with CARS program, but might they still be able to take you to court for $4500? I don't know.

Anyone who bought under this program and signed something that said "hey, if you don't get the dough from the US Government, I will cough it up..." was prepared to cough it up anyway. That's why you signed and took the dealership's car, right?

Should a dealership who handled matters this way be reported? Probably. It's what the CARS website says to do. Apparently, they are wanting to know who's doing this for some reason or another. I think they might be shocked to see MANY MANY dealerships taking this position and getting these documents early on, not knowing what to expect.

Dianne
__________________________________________________ ___

Originally Posted by Jabber

I agree with Dianne 100%. Our dealership was doing "paper" deliveries for about a week. But that was the week between 8/3 and 8/8. Once the senate approved the extra 2 billion, we started delivering all the "paper" deliveries. A paper delivery is doing everything as far as paperwork goes, money exchanges hands, contracts are signed, etc, but you don't actually take the vehicle home. Exactly what the CARS website says we can't do. We have not had a single person sign anything saying that they would owe the money if CARS didn't pay. What we have customers sign is a form saying they would return the vehicle or pay the difference, their choice. We aren't blowing up any engines until we get the approval from NHTSA. Basically, we can reverse everything, give back keys, and shake hands if it doesn't work out. So far, we haven't done that with any one of the 137 deals pending. And we have only had 3 approvals so far.

Back to the original query. Since the original details were recently changed, I have to wonder if any deals prior are still valid. My guess is they are, kind of like grandfathered in. In reality, if you don't have the money, the dealership will not take you to court. They will probably ask for the vehicle back and keep some of your down payment as payment for the miles and use of the car. Even that would be fairly shady and hard to enforce, but they might try it. Will the dealer get fined? I doubt it. Again, the agreement was in place before the ruling was issued.

URLYADOPTR, there is only one slight problem you have. This is not a mandatory program. If the dealership suddenly says, we are not doing C4C anymore, what would you do? The sales manager is being a little harsh in his words (based on what you are saying). I don't care for the way he is handling your transaction, but it is his car to sell you. You can agree with his terms and take delivery, or choose to go elsewhere. If you have not driven off the lot in your new car, you are not bound to the dealership in anyway. That is the legal side of it in Illinois. Check your local laws (call a different dealer and see what they say) to see if they are the same.

EDIT: Just re-read your original post. You have not taken delivery. You don't even have a valid purchase order if there is no car or VIN on it. You have a piece of paper that will make it easier to start a fire in wintertime. I still don't like the way you are being treated, but it still stays the same. It is their car to choose who to sell it to. Did they take all your paperwork and are trying to get it approved?

At the suggestion of our state association ( VADA ) we did add an Addendum to the contract but in fact the people at VADA did their homework very well. Here's why.

Like most dealers in the beginning we just took in clunkers and delivered new vehicles. When it looked like the program might run out of funding we took contingency orders ( paper deliveries ) with all the VINs noted on the Buyers Orders....but we held up the deliveries until the funding was increased.

Now, since the additional funding is in place it's back to normal..take in a clunker and deliver the new vehicle. No vehicles have been held up for any buyer. But....here's where VADA made a great contribution.

Rather than put the store and the customer at odds with one another by demanding a contingency payment upfront for the amount of the clunker rebate or refusing to deliver the new vehicle unless the buyer agreed to pay us if the paperwork was rejected...we have each customer sign an Addendum that simply says that if the rules change or the paperwork is not accepted then we cancel everything and return the whole transaction to square one before the buyer walked in the door. In dealer lingo...the entire deal is unwound. No harm, no foul.

Every customer has been in full agreement with this protection for both parties.

[DeadPhish]

Originally Posted by Jabber

Dealers do not have to junk the car before submitting the rebate forms to the gov. We can wait until we get an approval now.



That is why I asked if they took copies. A dealer cannot submit for money unless they incude a copy of the signed purchase agreement. Furthermore, I have to include a copy of the MCO (title on a new car). Therefore, if they submitted paperwork, they have a car in your name.

I hear your frustration, and understand exactly where you are coming from. But look at it from our side of the fence. Dianne mentions it in her post also. This whole program has been screwed up from the beginning. Dianne has about the same number of C4C deals as we do.. around 140 give or take. So, just 2 dealers out of 20,000 has over 1.1 million in money that we haven't collected on. In fact, we are getting applications back saying "rejected" and not even giving us a reason anymore. We have no idea why they are rejected. But it kindly says for us to please feel free to re-submit your application.

160-ish received here with about 10% paid and 50+% pending.

[DeadPhish]

Originally Posted by TangaRed

So what happens if they don't have the car on the lot. I've, done the CRC paperwork - and actually have a purchase agreement with a VIN number - however the dealer could not deliver the car. I am now waiting for them to find another deal to finish the deal.

Is my C4c valid if it takes a few weeks to find?

Something is 'off' here. You stated that you have an "agreement with a VIN - however the dealer could not deliver the car". I presume that means that the new vehicle has not arrived at their store yet. If this is the case than nothing is amiss. You and they simply have to await the arrival of the vehicle.

But the last sentence says "I am now waiting for them to find another deal to finish the deal." What does that mean? Do they have a VIN or not?

[jangell2]

Originally Posted by DeadPhish

...we have each customer sign an Addendum that simply says that if the rules change or the paperwork is not accepted then we cancel everything and return the whole transaction to square one before the buyer walked in the door. In dealer lingo...the entire deal is unwound. No harm, no foul.

Every customer has been in full agreement with this protection for both parties.

I interpret that to mean you get the Prius back, the customer gets all his money back and his still working clunker. Works for me

[urlyadoptr]

Originally Posted by DeadPhish

...we have each customer sign an Addendum that simply says that if the rules change or the paperwork is not accepted then we cancel everything and return the whole transaction to square one before the buyer walked in the door. In dealer lingo...the entire deal is unwound. No harm, no foul.

That seems pretty reasonable to me too. Kudos to VADA! (Too bad I don't live in Virginia!)