Need transaxle repair '02 Prius

[kenrose]

I just got the bad news today. I felt like I was playing the game of "Life" and landed on one of those terrible squares like "banks fail, pay $500,000 and lose your turn". Anyhow, I just spent $3500 a year ago on the 120,000 maintenance and a new catalytic converter. The transaxle oil was also changed.

About a week ago the main warning lights went on but the car still drove without a problem. It went off when the car cooled down, but now I have a high pitched, very loud whining sound that is synchronous with the tire rotation. The dealer had a hard time diagnosing it, but came back today with the $6200 news that I needed a new transaxle. (Sorry, but didn't get the code number. I can get it tomorrow if anyone thinks it's important.) With 137,000 miles on the car and a blue book value of about $7K if I do the repair, I'm wondering if it's worth it. Thus I have two questions for forum members:

1) Has anyone had any luck asking Toyota for a break on transaxle replacement. I know it's an old car by most standards, but I've owned Toyota's for decades, some reaching over 200K. I'm disappointed with my '02's demise at such an early age.

2) What criteria would you use to decide whether to do the repair or send my beloved car to the recycle heap. Toyota of Steven's Creek here in San Jose will give me $2000 as a trade in, but they've jack up the prices of the new Prius' with some extras, so the cost will be about $33K with taxes and fees. One consideration is that I have a car pool lane sticker which I utilize daily for my work, saving about 30 minutes of driving per day. The stickers are not transferable to new cars.

Thanks so much for helping out your sad fellow Prius lover. Any tips are appreciated.

[tochatihu]

Sorry about the bad news. The DTCs will be of interest so please do post them. In the meantime let us assume that the transaxle is done for.

Indeed you should contact Toyota 'customer experience' at 800-331-4331. Tell the story of your long support of Toyota vehicles and that all of PriusChat awaits their reply. Might help a little bit; others have gotten Toyota to go halfsies in similar cases in the past.

You could probably find the transaxle assembly from a salvage vehicle dismantler for a lot less. Getting the installation done is another matter. For this reason (and also for a second opinion on the diagnosis), I'd be heading towards Art's indie hybrid shop in Berkeley.

If you do decide to cash out on the car, I think $4k is a more reasonable price. The CA HOV stickers would indeed convince some to put the effort into a rebuild. There is at least one rebuilding shop in Sacramento, but I have not nailed down their url or telephone. Anybody reading can help with that?

Real bad news especially from a first-time poster. I hope that PriusChat can help you find the best way to proceed.

What in the heck was that $3500 for, besides the cat?

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

Can you get the car up to say 10-20 mph, fast enough to hear the whine, and slip the car in "N" can you tell us what happens to the noise?

If the transaxle has an internal short, the noise will remain even after shifting into "N". If it is inverter related, the noise would go away after shifting into "N".

Can you record it and post a URL to the recording with the speed? We can use AudioCity and knowing your vehicle gear ratios determine if the frequency is consistent with MG2 failure.

We do need the codes.

Before taking any repair actions:

• Get a sample of the transaxle fluid, at least a cup, in a clean, dried water bottle. I need it for testing and the oil database.
• Have someone drop the transaxle pan and photograph and examine the transaxle oil pan. We need to see if there is an debris there. If you plan to drive it later, you'll need about 4.9 quarts of transaxle oil to replace what is lost when you drop the pan.
• If there is debris in the pan, please collect as much as possible in a clean container, I would like to have it too.
• What oil did they use on the previous transaxle oil change?

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

ps. Swapping in a used transaxle is expensive but but the one report I've read suggests they had subsequent failures. This is not a trivial operation since it requires swapping out the engine and transaxle as a unit.

[kenrose]

Bob and Tochatihu,
Thank you both very much for your replies. I have some but not all the answers to your questions. First, the service codes and what the Toyota service person said about them today "quotes are approximate):

P3120: "Transaxel code"
P0302: "Misfire detected- could be the ECU or something else. This code was read during the initial diagnosis but on the second go-round it did NOT show up. It could be related to the P0302 or perhaps not, we don't know because the code isn't currently showing up. However, I do NOT recommend repairing the transaxel because there's about a 50% chance that the P0302 code will mean another very expensive repair immediately or in the near future."

In response to Tochahitu, thanks for the tip about contacting the Toyota Experience people. I did that today and they have assigned a "case manager" to oversee my case, and they are supposed to contact me by tomorrow mid-morning at the latest (PDT). I have no idea what to expect, but I will certainly mention the priuschat site to let them know the company is being scrutinized by serious consumers. The $3500 in repairs was for:
$1075 for 120K routine maintenance (parts, labor, supplies, hazmat)
$120 to Dx check engine light- pulled code P0420- catalytic converter
$1822 to replace catalytic converter
$212 parts and labor to replace battery
$88 parts and labor to replace AC water pump belt
some other little stuff, -$150 random discount

In response to Bob's questions:
I just took the car out and tested it at 15-20 mph. The noise very clearly did NOT go away after shifting to neutral. What does that mean for the repair that it's likely an internal short vs. the inverter? I'm not savvy enough at this point to understand the terms being used. Unfortunately I don't have a recording device that I can easily post to the web, but I'm sure I can find someone with the equipment and know-how since I am in Silcon Valley. But first, what is "MG2 failure" and what significance would this process be to the final decision about whether or not to repair the car?

As for the other things you mentioned, it's sounds like a lot of work and expense. I don't have a mechanic who will do such things without a significant cost. With 2 kids in college and a potential bill for a new car, I don't want to spend the money without a solid reason to do so. Can you elaborate the the need for taking the samples? Is this something the dealer would also find useful? As for the type of oil that was last used, the receipt from the expensive repair mentioned about (date 9/22/07) says they used 5 qts of ATF T-IV. I assume that's the correct type.
Lastly, you both mentioned the possibility of putting in a used transaxle. From what I read on the priuschat site, it sounds risky at best. I guess I'm not willing to take that risk at this time- I'd rather have a repair I can count on and have guaranteed to work or my money back.

Again, thanks so much for your help and encouragement. I'll certainly post the response from my "case manager" after speaking with them tomorrow.
Ken

[whodat]

Hi Ken,
Very sorry to hear about your transaxle problems. I just had my transaxle oil changed at 65K miles and I have sent my transaxle oil sample to Blackstone labs for analysis. I can't really provide any help other than to point out following:

the carpool stickers in Silicon Valley are of value that should not be underestimated (but cannot be transfered). Your break even analysis should factor this in.

Another point to factor in is the price of gas. If you believe the price of gas will drop to $4/gallon, the value of the prius will probably stay about the same. If the price of gas increases to $5/gallon, you may be underestimating the value of your Prius. If the price of gas increases to $6/gallon, you may be greatly underestimating your Prius.

Regards
Dave

[kenrose]

Dave,
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. Can I ask what the point is of analyzing the oil contents? I'm curiously what you're looking for and if that is something that I should also do. My ATF oil was changed at 121K and the problem occured at 137K.

I have certainly thought long and hard about the HOV sticker. I use it every day for my commute and know its value for sure. However, I do have another Prius (2004) that my wife will trade me if I get another car, and she doesn't commute on the highways. I'd like to keep it but at what price and risk? I also agree with you about the resale, however, and will keep that in mind if and when I decide to part with my wonderful car. Thanks again,
Ken

[bwilson4web]

Hi Ken,

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
P3120: "Transaxel code"
P0302: "Misfire detected- could be the ECU or something else.

P0302 means misfire detected on the second cylinder (pp. DI-67, Repair Manual Vol. 1) The ambiguity group, "Open or short in engine wire; Connector connection; Vacuum hose connection; Ignition system; Injector; Fuel pressure; Manifold absolute pressure sensor; Engine coolant temp. sensor; Compression pressure; Value clearance; Valve taiming; ECM; PVC piping."

P3120: "HV Transaxle Malfunction"
P3120 has subcodes for motor and generator magnetism reductions. Other errors include, "shaft damaged; generator locked; torque limiter sliding planetary gear locked; motor resolver inter-phase short; open or short in motor resolver; motor resolver inter-phase short; open or short in motor resolver circuit; GND short in motor temperature; open B+ in motor temperature sensor; and the same for the generator."

Is it possible the engine compartment might have been exposed to water, say cleaning? Regardless, there appears to be a common thread suggesting a connector might be loose too.

Did the problem(s) come on suddenly or over time?

Can or did the service department read out the sub-codes? These give more details about the specific failure mode(s).

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
I just took the car out and tested it at 15-20 mph. The noise very clearly did NOT go away after shifting to neutral. What does that mean for the repair that it's likely an internal short vs. the inverter?

It rules out the inverter since when you go into "N", the inverter remains passive, not passing any power about. This is bad because it suggests the problem is inside the transaxle/engine area and that becomes expensive quickly.

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
I'm not savvy enough at this point to understand the terms being used. Unfortunately I don't have a recording device that I can easily post to the web, but I'm sure I can find someone with the equipment and know-how since I am in Silcon Valley.

Getting the sound let's us evaluate part of what is going on. However, it is not critical in this case.

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
But first, what is "MG2 failure" and what significance would this process be to the final decision about whether or not to repair the car?

We have two motor/generators in the transaxle. The smaller one couples to the engine as starter and part of the CVT function. MG2 is the larger one that couples to the drive wheels. If the wheels are turning, MG2 is turning.

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
it's sounds like a lot of work and expense. I don't have a mechanic who will do such things without a significant cost. With 2 kids in college and a potential bill for a new car, I don't want to spend the money without a solid reason to do so. Can you elaborate the the need for taking the samples?

I agree, "expense."

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
As for the type of oil that was last used, the receipt from the expensive repair mentioned about (date 9/22/07) says they used 5 qts of ATF T-IV. I assume that's the correct type.

That is the correct oil for this model.

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
Lastly, you both mentioned the possibility of putting in a used transaxle. From what I read on the priuschat site, it sounds risky at best. I guess I'm not willing to take that risk at this time- I'd rather have a repair I can count on and have guaranteed to work or my money back.

Yes, it is risky since we don't know what the other transaxle has gone through. It makes sense to try and have the connectors re-seated without trying to raise expectations. Sometimes it works (rarely) but the rolling testing in "N" suggests something worse. Still, re-seating the connectors is fairly cheap.

Bob Wilson

[kenrose]

Bob,
Thanks for your "plain English" responses to my many questions. In response to your questions:
It's so dry here is California this time of year. The only water that's touched the car was when I carefully washed it about 3 weeks ago. I did not wash the engine itself and don't think there's been any water in direct contact since the last rains in February.

As for the timing of the problem, we had a severe hot spell with days over 100 deg F for about 3 days, and I was driving the car off and on all day during that time. I first noticed it rather suddenly the afternoon before the engine warning light went on (car was parked for about 4 hrs between the two.) The sound was subtle enough that I noticed it but wasn't concerned. The noise got much louder after I got it back from dealer when they first tried (and failed) to diagnose the problem.

I can certainly ask the dealer for the subcodes if you think it would be useful. Is it worth my asking the dealer to try tightening the connectors and see if that makes a difference?

Last question (from my wife, actually). The dealer said that the car is safe to drive unless the problem gets worse. What's your take on that? What's the worst that could happen to the car- a stall, or the axle freezing at high speeds and falling off?

Thanks again for helping me out with this- it's greatly appreciated.
Ken

[Patrick Wong]

Hi Ken,

One of your questions was whether it is worthwhile to spend $6,200 to install a new transaxle. If your figure of $7K blue book is correct, then that repair is not worthwhile. However, the CA carpool stickers still have substantial value and their use allows you to save 30 minutes each weekday, a big plus. Hence my guess is that the $7K number may be increased to $9K+. In that case it might be barely worthwhile to go ahead with the repair.

I agree that you can continue to drive the car as-is for a while. The worst that will happen is that the car will stall and refuse to restart.

Regarding DTC P0302, usually an engine misfire is due to an igniter problem or a spark plug problem. It could be that some water entered cylinder #2 spark plug well, causing corrosion, a high voltage leak, etc. In any event this should be a relatively low cost problem to resolve if the problem returns.

I note that you've recently replaced the catalytic converter and the 12V battery. If you decide to replace the transaxle, please note that other expensive parts could easily fail in the near future, including the traction battery, the electric steering gear, and the MFD.

Your best bet would be to get some financial assistance from Toyota for the transaxle replacement. In the past it was not unheard of for Toyota to offer the part at a 50% discount. However, the auto companies are struggling financially and Toyota's budget for post-warranty assistance may be smaller now.

The big question is whether your car is going to become a money pit, or whether with a new transaxle the car will run reliably for a long period of time. Unfortunately there is no way to predict in advance which outcome will occur.

[bwilson4web]

Hi Ken,

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
As for the timing of the problem, we had a severe hot spell with days over 100 deg F for about 3 days, and I was driving the car off and on all day during that time. I first noticed it rather suddenly the afternoon before the engine warning light went on (car was parked for about 4 hrs between the two.) The sound was subtle enough that I noticed it but wasn't concerned. The noise got much louder after I got it back from dealer when they first tried (and failed) to diagnose the problem.

This is consistent with an internal winding short. It does get worse.

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
I can certainly ask the dealer for the subcodes if you think it would be useful. Is it worth my asking the dealer to try tightening the connectors and see if that makes a difference?

The subcodes help us understand the details of the failure mechanism. However, I suspect an internal winding short that will only get worse over time.

Originally Posted by kenrose

...
Last question (from my wife, actually). The dealer said that the car is safe to drive unless the problem gets worse. What's your take on that? What's the worst that could happen to the car- a stall, or the axle freezing at high speeds and falling off?

The only road hazard would be if a wheel bearing were failing. However, these don't 'throw a code.' Everything you've described is consistent with an internal failure of MG2 ... a winding short. Just start to carry a six-pack of water and sunscreen in the trunk.

I think you need to start making some hard decisions:

• another car (losing the commuter sticker)
• repair vs. other car price
• risks of other system failures

If you were near Art's Automotive in San Francisco, I would recommend taking it there; getting their estimate; and deciding. Perhaps some of our California owners might have other 3d party shops to recommend.

I would like a generous sample of your transaxle oil. I have a small amount from one other failed transaxle and really need more for my experimental uses. I would also like a photo of the transaxle pan contents and the contents if available.

Bob Wilson

ps. A transaxle from a flooded Prius might be a good option.