2002 Transmission Issues

[ChuckM]

First time poster, long time Prius owner. This is a very strange and troublesome issue and I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar issue or would care to comment.

My '02 prius recently had to have the main battery pack replaced about 4 months ago. Toyota was very helpful with the entire transaction even though this second GEN I that I have now owned for about 3 years was at 175k and long out of warranty. After replacing the battery pack it was back in great shape, running fine for another 10k. Then a loud clunk and a stutter occurred when my son took off from a stopsign (a little quickly but nothing outrageous).

Very gentle accelaration and there is no issue. Hit the gas a bit too hard though and it feels like there is a momentary slippage of the gears. Once up to say 15 mph or higher, it runs like a champ. Highway acceleration to pass and no issues. Now, today it started the clunk/stutter when I was slowing to a little quicker than usual stop due to a driver who apparently never learned about checking his brakelight bulbs. Anyway, thanks to my favorite non-dealer mechanic (he's been wanting to get a look at the little car and checked it over as a favor), a couple of calls and some very quick research he/we now have a theory.

There looks from the diagrams that there is a chain assembly in the transmission. Could it be slipping like a 10 speed bike not quite engaged? Toyota does nothing but replace the entire transmission from what I understand. Before going into the dealer, I'd like to be as well informed as possible. Anyone have any ideas?

[Patrick Wong]

Is it possible that the clunk is caused by a bad CV joint? Did your mechanic check the two half-shafts?

It is true that if the transaxle is the problem, the dealer will replace the entire assembly as they are not able to disassemble and replace components. In that case you might want to consider buying a salvage part rather than spend $6K at the dealer for a new transaxle.

[bwilson4web]

Don't rule out engine/transmission mounts.

Bob Wilson

[jk450]

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

It is true that if the transaxle is the problem, the dealer will replace the entire assembly as they are not able to disassemble and replace components.

That's not true. Many parts have been available for some time.

[kenopa]

Am currently working through a failed transaxle on my 2003. Dealer will not replace transaxle subassemblies. Replacement trans quoted at $5650 plus labor, making the decision to repair a no-go. There is no shop I can identify in the midwest that will take on a trans replacement, so time to move on.

[adric22]

Originally Posted by jk450

That's not true. Many parts have been available for some time.

It isn't that the dealer is "unable" it is more that they are "unwilling" to do so. Dealers generally don't want to mess with tearing down engines or transmissions. Their techs are just trained to replace them, and sometimes not very well at that.

[jk450]

Originally Posted by adric22

It isn't that the dealer is "unable" it is more that they are "unwilling" to do so. Dealers generally don't want to mess with tearing down engines or transmissions. Their techs are just trained to replace them, and sometimes not very well at that.

I was responding to a post in which the writer claimed that the dealer is "not able to disassemble and replace components" - which, in the case of the Gen I transaxle, is simply not true. I'm just trying to counter misinformation.

In response to your post, however, some dealerships are quite happy repairing engines and transmissions, and do a very good job.

[Patrick Wong]

Originally Posted by jk450

I was responding to a post in which the writer claimed that the dealer is "not able to disassemble and replace components" - which, in the case of the Gen I transaxle, is simply not true. I'm just trying to counter misinformation.

In response to your post, however, some dealerships are quite happy repairing engines and transmissions, and do a very good job.

I'm aware that Toyota offers for sale various Prius transaxle components. As you consider my assertion to be misinformation, a few questions for you:

- Please identify those Toyota dealers (name, city/state) who have tech staff competent to repair Prius transaxles (I am not talking about the typical Toyota automatic transaxle or transmission, where I would expect the typical dealership should have competent staff to repair some failures.)

- What are the two or three most likely Prius transaxle failure root causes, and what would the Toyota dealer typically charge to repair those root causes?

- Can the competent Toyota tech precisely identify the failed Prius transaxle part before the transaxle is disassembled? (In other words, how much risk does the owner assume that the final repair bill will substantially exceed the originally quoted amount?)

A new transaxle has an MSRP of $3,460. Excluding the cost of labor to remove and reinstall the transaxle:

- Suppose the MG1 or MG2 stator winding has failed. What will the transaxle repair price be?

- Given the above, is it economical to repair the transaxle?

In post #5 above, kenopa asserted that his dealer wanted to charge $5,650 just for the part, plus labor to replace the transaxle. This is a dealer markup of ~$2,200 over MSRP.

- What could the dealer's service manager be thinking to charge such an exorbitant amount?

- Is this just a way for the dealership to say, sorry, we are not interested in doing this work for you?

Many Classic owners have reported transaxle failures outside the 5 year / 60K mile powertrain warranty, and have been asked to pay for a new transaxle. A few 2G owners have had transaxle failures outside warranty and again were asked to pay for a new transaxle.

Here's a current example of a very simple transaxle repair. A wiring harness connector socket on the front of the transaxle was broken due to front-end accident damage. The OP's Toyota dealer service dept wanted to replace the entire transaxle, rather than replace the socket: I was robbed......

The OP towed the car to an independent Prius specialist for repair.

This is a very important issue for Classic and older 2G owners whose cars' powertrain warranties have expired. The 7-9 year old car with 100K+ miles on the odometer has a market value of <=$5K. If the owner is confronted with a Toyota dealer repair quote of $5-6K (or even much more, in kenopa's case) to replace the transaxle, that is a very tough nut to swallow and it probably makes more sense to tow the car to the salvage yard (unless a salvage transaxle can be located along with an independent willing to install it.)

I know of no case where a Toyota dealer's service dept has offered to repair a failed transaxle, and there have been a good number documented here on PriusChat as well as the Yahoo Prius forum. Since you know Toyota dealers who are willing to perform transaxle repair, please provide answers to the above rather than continue to keep us in suspense.

[jk450]

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

I'm aware that Toyota offers for sale various Prius transaxle components. As you consider my assertion to be misinformation, a few questions for you:

Let's back up a minute. This seems to be an emotional issue for you, and your post has gone off on quite a few tangents. I don't think you are purposely trying to cloud the issue, but I'd prefer that the conversation stay on track.

You had stated:

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

It is true that if the transaxle is the problem, the dealer will replace the entire assembly as they are not able to disassemble and replace components.

So if the dealer is able to disassemble and replace components, your post is unfortunately, incorrect. If it is possible to find a dealer that will do so, your post is even more incorrect. In addition to pointing this out, I stated that some dealerships are quite happy repairing engines and transmissions, and do a very good job. I stand by that assertion.

So let's keep the focus on that. Agreed?

To begin with, Toyota service information shows how to diagnose the motors in the Gen 1 transaxle, and how to replace them separately. As far as I know, Toyota does not offer training on the disassembly of the transaxle, which is not surprising, as it is not complicated, and is clearly explained in the service information. As well, you can find parts listings for both Gen 1 motor assemblies, as well as various components such as the PSD, gears, chain, bearings, and so on.

But if, as you claim, Toyota dealerships "are not able to disassemble and replace components", then Toyota would surely have not invested time and money to make the service information and the parts available.

Feel free to research this for yourself.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

- Please identify those Toyota dealers (name, city/state) who have tech staff competent to repair Prius transaxles (I am not talking about the typical Toyota automatic transaxle or transmission, where I would expect the typical dealership should have competent staff to repair some failures.)

Why are you unable to do this yourself? Surely you are capable of doing so. Just pick up the phone. And again, all I said was that some dealerships are quite happy repairing engines and transmissions, and do a very good job. If you find that no Toyota dealership is willing to do so, I will be more than willing to admit my mistake.

After all, we're all interested in accurate information. Right?

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

- What are the two or three most likely Prius transaxle failure root causes, and what would the Toyota dealer typically charge to repair those root causes?

For the Gen I Prius, MG2 is the most common failure. After that, it's difficult to say without robust statistics. Too many folks will look at, say, seven failures and extrapolate "data". There are many different reasons why a Gen 1 transaxle can fail.

For the Gen II, there is no clear trend.

But your question has nothing to do with your complaint. You've stated that if the transaxle is the problem, the dealer will replace the entire assembly as they are not able to disassemble and replace components. I've already provided enough information to help you learn for yourself that this is not so.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

- Can the competent Toyota tech precisely identify the failed Prius transaxle part before the transaxle is disassembled?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

A new transaxle has an MSRP of $3,460. Excluding the cost of labor to remove and reinstall the transaxle:

- Suppose the MG1 or MG2 stator winding has failed. What will the transaxle repair price be?

It would depend in part on whether the transaxle is being repaired or replaced, but repair facilities are free to set their own prices.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

- Given the above, is it economical to repair the transaxle?

That is, of course, dependent on many factors: residual value of the vehicle, customer's financial health, and so on. But again, the question is whether or not a it is possible for a dealership to repair rather than replace a Prius transaxle. You're bringing up an entirely different subject.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

In post #5 above, kenopa asserted that his dealer wanted to charge $5,650 just for the part, plus labor to replace the transaxle. This is a dealer markup of ~$2,200 over MSRP.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

- What could the dealer's service manager be thinking to charge such an exorbitant amount?

Profit.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

- Is this just a way for the dealership to say, sorry, we are not interested in doing this work for you?

I don't know. You'd have to ask the service manager.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

Many Classic owners have reported transaxle failures outside the 5 year / 60K mile powertrain warranty, and have been asked to pay for a new transaxle. A few 2G owners have had transaxle failures outside warranty and again were asked to pay for a new transaxle.

I don't consider it odd that vehicles out of warranty are not covered by the warranty.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

Here's a current example of a very simple transaxle repair. A wiring harness connector socket on the front of the transaxle was broken due to front-end accident damage. The OP's Toyota dealer service dept wanted to replace the entire transaxle, rather than replace the socket: I was robbed......

The dealership obviously misdiagnosed the vehicle. And there are, of course, competent independent shops capable of working on the Prius. I've recommended some in the past.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

The 7-9 year old car with 100K+ miles on the odometer has a market value of <=$5K. If the owner is confronted with a Toyota dealer repair quote of $5-6K (or even much more, in kenopa's case) to replace the transaxle, that is a very tough nut to swallow and it probably makes more sense to tow the car to the salvage yard (unless a salvage transaxle can be located along with an independent willing to install it.)

I don't disagree with any of that. But again, you posted about a completely different subject: you stated unequivocally that Toyota dealerships are "not able to disassemble and replace components." That's not true, and I've provided enough information to demonstrate that.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

I know of no case where a Toyota dealer's service dept has offered to repair a failed transaxle, and there have been a good number documented here on PriusChat as well as the Yahoo Prius forum.

I don't think anyone claimed that you did know of such a case.

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

Since you know Toyota dealers who are willing to perform transaxle repair, please provide answers to the above rather than continue to keep us in suspense.

Again, why can't you do this for yourself?

By the way, if my posts trouble you, please feel free to ignore them. Really, I won't mind. But if I see something posted that I know to be untrue, I may point that out, so that forum readers do not remain misinformed.

What's wrong with that?

[Patrick Wong]

Originally Posted by jk450

...For the Gen I Prius, MG2 is the most common failure. After that, it's difficult to say without robust statistics...

But your question has nothing to do with your complaint. You've stated that if the transaxle is the problem, the dealer will replace the entire assembly as they are not able to disassemble and replace components. I've already provided enough information to help you learn for yourself that this is not so...

Thanks for your feedback. I agree that the Toyota dealer tech has available the technical information needed to disassemble and repair the Prius tranaxle. I further agree that Toyota makes Prius transaxle components available for sale.

I should have said that the dealer service department most likely will not recommend repair of the failed Prius transaxle. This is based upon my observations of a few dozen reported failures where a new transaxle was recommended, rather than the service dept offering to repair the old.

If you know a specific situation where a Toyota dealership has actually repaired a Prius transaxle, I would be interested in hearing the details including the root cause of the failure and the repair price.