Biodiesel

WaterOx · 10-10-2009, 12:19 PM

Hi all,

Would someone please tell me why the Prius is so eco-friendly? How long does the battery last, what is done with it once you have to get rid of it, and where are the materials sourced? You have to fill the car up with regular gas - although it does get good gas mileage.

I am a proud driver of a 1983 Mercedes Diesel. I use 100% recycled veggie oil to run the car. Since it is an 83, I am using a car which has already been produced, not a new one which requires a lot of energy, etc.

I am certainly not anti-Prius. I just don't think it's as eco-friendly as touted by the company and by owners.

tumbleweed · 10-10-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaterOx

Hi all,

Would someone please tell me why the Prius is so eco-friendly? How long does the battery last, what is done with it once you have to get rid of it, and where are the materials sourced? You have to fill the car up with regular gas - although it does get good gas mileage.

I am a proud driver of a 1983 Mercedes Diesel. I use 100% recycled veggie oil to run the car. Since it is an 83, I am using a car which has already been produced, not a new one which requires a lot of energy, etc.

I am certainly not anti-Prius. I just don't think it's as eco-friendly as touted by the company and by owners.

Thanks for your questions, I'll try to give you some answers:

The Prius has two batteries, a 12 V lead acid battery just like other cars but it is smaller, about the size of a lawn tractor battery. They usually last 5 to 7 years and are recycled by the same factories that recycle normal car, truck, motorcycle batteries etc.

The other battery which we refer to as the hybrid battery or the traction battery is a sealed nickel-metal hydride battery. These normally do not fail during the life of the car, at least so far they haven't and some have several hundred thousand miles on them. There have been a few damaged in accidents and a very few of the early ones (1999 to 2003 model years) have developed bad cells, but there have been significant improvements since the early model. These damaged or failed Ni-MH batteries, I am told, are are returned to the Panasonic factory to be recycled. There are a lot of mostly empty ships returning to Japan.

I consider the car to be "eco-friendly" because it will easily get 50+ MPG and has fewer emissions than any other vehicle that I know of except 100% electric vehicles, which are not practical for most of us. It requires no more resources to build than any other vehicle, as far as I know, and it will out last most other cars. Might even go as long as your Mercedes but it hasn't been in production long enough to know yet.

What vehicle can you name that is as good as the manufacturer or enthuastic owners claim it is? Manufacturers exagerate to help sell their product, it's called advertising. Proud owners tell other people how great their car, TV set, new table saw, or whatever is. Just pride of ownership and if they didn't like it they wouldn't have bought it.

I'll go out on a limb and say that most of us don't buy the car because it's eco- friendly anyway, that's nice but it's not a driving factor. Most of us enjoy the technology and like having a car that uses less imported oil than almost any other.

donee · 10-10-2009, 05:03 PM

Hi WaterOx,

You apparently have been FUD'd (look up FUD on Wikipedia).

The Prius is ecologically beneficial because it uses half the gas of other cars with the same interior space and performance and it puts out 1/10 the noxious polutants of a similar car.

As to Biodiesel it can only be used up to B10 in clean diesel cars, which still put out several times the noxious polutants as a Prius. So, on a petroleum usage basis, and noxious emissions basis, cars conforming to present new production regulations, that are diesels are a just not up to Prius snuff. Additionally, in order to meet the most basic (ie lousy) permission level for emissions in the US, the diesels had to be reduced in engine efficiency, and have to burn extra fuel to clean the DPF on occaision.

Please do not drive in front of me with that 83 Merc. I can smell those things 1/2 mile away ahead on the highway. And they are nasty. You know, the government was giving people with cars like yours money a few months ago, so they could afford modern technology. Maybe your heard of the "Cash for Clunkers" program?

Prius Chat has many European members. And they will tell you how bad it is to live in a metropolitan area where over 50 percent of the cars are diesels.

The Prius battery uses nickel. Which is the same metal that makes up 30% (oops -
Edit: 303 and 304 Stainless Steels have about 10 % Nickel) of the metal in tablewear most people eat their food with. Its not noxious, its valuable, and thus recycled. The Prius battery assembly only weights 90 pounds, and the amount of nickel is about 1/3 that weight. Many SUV's have that much nickel in them in anti-corrosion steels. Toyota buys nickel from INCO. Its been quoted that the fraction of nickel used for Prius batteries is less than 1 % of what INCO makes for all the other uses of nickel (turbine super alloys, stainless steel, non-automotive batteries, others?). The Prius battery uses a caustic electrolyte, which is much less hazordous than the acid in the battery in your car.

The Prius battery is designed to have a 150K mile service life. This has been the great majority of Prius owners' (that have driven that far) experience. Many taxi drivers have gone 200 K miles on the original battery. And a fiew reported 300K miles.

Another commonly exposed falsehood is the energy required to make a car versus how much it takes to run one. Several studies indicate for standard cars its 25 % of the overall energy consumption to manufacture and recycle the car, and 75 % of the total is the energy is used to fuel a car.

Now, I cannot blame you for the money savings your getting with that car, as long as you stay out of a metropolitan area with it. But, your really not saving energy usage with it over a Prius on a total energy consumption basis. Those older 300D and TD Merc's were in the 21 to 24 mpg (Find a Car) running on a fuel with 1.15 times the energy of gasoline. And of course the Prius does double that mileage on that gasoline fuel. And of course, Biodiesel is not a year-round fuel. Do not try to run on that fuel when its cold.

JimboPalmer · 10-10-2009, 06:19 PM

Some of our posters get a bit testy, answering the same mistaken beliefs over and over, I will try another tack.

Lets imagine that the Prius is not cleaner than an electric car, (Only 21% of my electricity comes from coal) I imagine it is still cleaner than a 1983 Diesel, on an uncontrolled fuel. To my knowledge, I am driving the vehicle that will pollute the least amount on my 110 mile commute. (I could not find an electric vehicle that would carry my gear 110 miles without a recharge)
Emission Comparison: Prius / HS250h / Insight / Civic Hybrid / Jetta (Gas+TDI) / WRX STI

While I have little doubt your 1983 is well cared for and reliable, but how many exist so you can recommend one to your mother, your neighbor, the world? The Prius (or Insight, or several other choices) is a currently manufactured car, that anyone can buy and with no change in their driving style, double their mileage. (more mileage is available to those who can change their driving style) My (perhaps mistaken) understanding is that modern Clean Diesels require a regulated fuel by Federal law. (I am not claiming the BioDiesel does not meet the standard, only that Federal Law says you must prove it does)
Ultra-low sulfur diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember a BioWillie station about 40 miles away, but currently the nearest biodiesel station I can find is an unmaned station 120 miles away in Jackson. Biodiesel in Mississippi seems to be self manufactured, not purchased. This may well make ownership a rather limited solution for the average Joe, not to mention my mother. It bodes ill for Biodiesel users who drive through MS, they will be back on petro-diesel..

I am happy you have found a way to lessen your dependence on foreign oil, I hope you are happy I have found mine!

(no one specifically mentioned it, but Toyota pays $200 for failed Traction batteries, so very few of them should avoid recycling)

WaterOx · 10-11-2009, 01:39 AM

I can use my biodiesel year round. Anyone can get heated injection lines. So cold weather is no problem at all. My fuel mileage is about 30 mpg, give or take. And it's easy to have biodiesel - it's delivered to my home! I have a 50 gallon drum tank with a manual crank which fills up my car. The point is I never ever have to buy gas. Even though a Prius does get excellent mpg efficiency, you still are supporting big oil. Period.

And as far as technology and drivability: I sit on the most comfy leather, supportive seats, have incredible views of the road from every window, and a big sunroof. Besides, the car has a beautiful, classic look, that is built solid. Technology, well I have Sirius satellite radio, with a USB iPod adapter.

Again, I am certainly not against the Prius, but I have yet to be convinced that it's greener that my biodiesel MB 300 TD.

JimboPalmer · 10-11-2009, 01:55 AM

Define "green"

I doubt CARB would allow it as a new car. They seem opposed to anything over B20
http://www.arb.ca.gov/diesel/verdev/...compliance.pdf

philobeddoe · 10-11-2009, 04:40 AM

i hope to build out a bio-diesel chevy suburban down the road ...

a toy hauling, road tripping, rolling living room, running on spent soy and corn oil ... leaving nothing in it's wake but the scent of yesterday's french fries

well, it's my dream

plus, i figure i can slap a turbo on it and really haul ass

never been a fan of the '83 mercedes diesel, but i'm glad to hear it works for you

the prius works better for me

i don't know which one is greener, but i didn't know it was a contest

i suppose if it's the mutt's nutts, you can snatch up a bunch of '83 benz diesels, tune 'em up, market 'em and unload 'em for a penny or two

good luck with your new business ... let us know how it goes

patsparks · 10-11-2009, 05:36 AM

I'd like to place an order for 1,000,000 of those 1983 Mercedes Benz and the free bio-diesel to run them. Then I would like an ongoing supply of them growing at an exponential rate to replace the currently about 1,000,000 Prius on the road and those being imported to the USA each year. I doubt this order can be met so people will continue to buy Prius. Point is mute.

I'm really happy to read about your environmentally friendly car running on renewable fuel, good on ya!

Different strokes for different folks, as long as we all pull together, hey!

qbee42 · 10-11-2009, 08:22 AM

Pat, you have hit on the key issue. Biodiesel is great for people who can get it cheep or free, but it's not scalable to the masses in general since the supply is limited. It makes sense to use the biodiesel that is available, which is why it is good we have people like the OP on this thread. I say good for him.

Once too many people start embracing biodiesel, it won't be free or cheep anymore. In our area we have seen the same thing happen with pellet stoves that burn compressed wood pellets, corn, or even cherry pits. When they were first introduced, the pellet stoves were a great bargin. The wood pellets were nearly free. Not anymore. In some cases they now cost as much as fuel oil, plus you have the hassle of dealing with a solid fuel. Any time you can use a free waste product it's a good deal. Once that waste product becomes a commodity the equation shifts.

Tom

Flying White Dutchman · 10-11-2009, 10:16 AM

patt... you got a good point there.

personaly i dont like this idear because diesel in a old car like that is not burning eco friendly and also will biodiesel not. only some of the co2 will be ofset but not the NOX etc etc.

10-10-2009, 12:19 PM	#1
WaterOx Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 16 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Model: N/A Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Biodiesel Hi all, Would someone please tell me why the Prius is so eco-friendly? How long does the battery last, what is done with it once you have to get rid of it, and where are the materials sourced? You have to fill the car up with regular gas - although it does get good gas mileage. I am a proud driver of a 1983 Mercedes Diesel. I use 100% recycled veggie oil to run the car. Since it is an 83, I am using a car which has already been produced, not a new one which requires a lot of energy, etc. I am certainly not anti-Prius. I just don't think it's as eco-friendly as touted by the company and by owners.

10-10-2009, 05:03 PM	#3
donee Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 2,244 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 2 Thanked 54 Times in 47 Posts Friends: 0	Re: Biodiesel Hi WaterOx, You apparently have been FUD'd (look up FUD on Wikipedia). The Prius is ecologically beneficial because it uses half the gas of other cars with the same interior space and performance and it puts out 1/10 the noxious polutants of a similar car. As to Biodiesel it can only be used up to B10 in clean diesel cars, which still put out several times the noxious polutants as a Prius. So, on a petroleum usage basis, and noxious emissions basis, cars conforming to present new production regulations, that are diesels are a just not up to Prius snuff. Additionally, in order to meet the most basic (ie lousy) permission level for emissions in the US, the diesels had to be reduced in engine efficiency, and have to burn extra fuel to clean the DPF on occaision. Please do not drive in front of me with that 83 Merc. I can smell those things 1/2 mile away ahead on the highway. And they are nasty. You know, the government was giving people with cars like yours money a few months ago, so they could afford modern technology. Maybe your heard of the "Cash for Clunkers" program? Prius Chat has many European members. And they will tell you how bad it is to live in a metropolitan area where over 50 percent of the cars are diesels. The Prius battery uses nickel. Which is the same metal that makes up 30% (oops - Edit: 303 and 304 Stainless Steels have about 10 % Nickel) of the metal in tablewear most people eat their food with. Its not noxious, its valuable, and thus recycled. The Prius battery assembly only weights 90 pounds, and the amount of nickel is about 1/3 that weight. Many SUV's have that much nickel in them in anti-corrosion steels. Toyota buys nickel from INCO. Its been quoted that the fraction of nickel used for Prius batteries is less than 1 % of what INCO makes for all the other uses of nickel (turbine super alloys, stainless steel, non-automotive batteries, others?). The Prius battery uses a caustic electrolyte, which is much less hazordous than the acid in the battery in your car. The Prius battery is designed to have a 150K mile service life. This has been the great majority of Prius owners' (that have driven that far) experience. Many taxi drivers have gone 200 K miles on the original battery. And a fiew reported 300K miles. Another commonly exposed falsehood is the energy required to make a car versus how much it takes to run one. Several studies indicate for standard cars its 25 % of the overall energy consumption to manufacture and recycle the car, and 75 % of the total is the energy is used to fuel a car. Now, I cannot blame you for the money savings your getting with that car, as long as you stay out of a metropolitan area with it. But, your really not saving energy usage with it over a Prius on a total energy consumption basis. Those older 300D and TD Merc's were in the 21 to 24 mpg (Find a Car) running on a fuel with 1.15 times the energy of gasoline. And of course the Prius does double that mileage on that gasoline fuel. And of course, Biodiesel is not a year-round fuel. Do not try to run on that fuel when its cold. Last edited by donee; 10-11-2009 at 09:05 AM.

10-10-2009, 06:19 PM	#4
JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Greenwood MS USA Posts: 378 My Car: 2009 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 17 Thanked 66 Times in 53 Posts Friends: 3	Re: Biodiesel Some of our posters get a bit testy, answering the same mistaken beliefs over and over, I will try another tack. Lets imagine that the Prius is not cleaner than an electric car, (Only 21% of my electricity comes from coal) I imagine it is still cleaner than a 1983 Diesel, on an uncontrolled fuel. To my knowledge, I am driving the vehicle that will pollute the least amount on my 110 mile commute. (I could not find an electric vehicle that would carry my gear 110 miles without a recharge) Emission Comparison: Prius / HS250h / Insight / Civic Hybrid / Jetta (Gas+TDI) / WRX STI While I have little doubt your 1983 is well cared for and reliable, but how many exist so you can recommend one to your mother, your neighbor, the world? The Prius (or Insight, or several other choices) is a currently manufactured car, that anyone can buy and with no change in their driving style, double their mileage. (more mileage is available to those who can change their driving style) My (perhaps mistaken) understanding is that modern Clean Diesels require a regulated fuel by Federal law. (I am not claiming the BioDiesel does not meet the standard, only that Federal Law says you must prove it does) Ultra-low sulfur diesel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I remember a BioWillie station about 40 miles away, but currently the nearest biodiesel station I can find is an unmaned station 120 miles away in Jackson. Biodiesel in Mississippi seems to be self manufactured, not purchased. This may well make ownership a rather limited solution for the average Joe, not to mention my mother. It bodes ill for Biodiesel users who drive through MS, they will be back on petro-diesel.. I am happy you have found a way to lessen your dependence on foreign oil, I hope you are happy I have found mine! (no one specifically mentioned it, but Toyota pays $200 for failed Traction batteries, so very few of them should avoid recycling) __________________ I tried to remain childlike, but all I achieved was childish. Last edited by JimboPalmer; 10-10-2009 at 06:29 PM.

10-11-2009, 01:39 AM	#5
WaterOx Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 16 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Model: N/A Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Re: Biodiesel I can use my biodiesel year round. Anyone can get heated injection lines. So cold weather is no problem at all. My fuel mileage is about 30 mpg, give or take. And it's easy to have biodiesel - it's delivered to my home! I have a 50 gallon drum tank with a manual crank which fills up my car. The point is I never ever have to buy gas. Even though a Prius does get excellent mpg efficiency, you still are supporting big oil. Period. And as far as technology and drivability: I sit on the most comfy leather, supportive seats, have incredible views of the road from every window, and a big sunroof. Besides, the car has a beautiful, classic look, that is built solid. Technology, well I have Sirius satellite radio, with a USB iPod adapter. Again, I am certainly not against the Prius, but I have yet to be convinced that it's greener that my biodiesel MB 300 TD. Last edited by WaterOx; 10-11-2009 at 01:44 AM. Reason: Oh and I use B100.

10-11-2009, 01:55 AM	#6
JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Greenwood MS USA Posts: 378 My Car: 2009 Prius Model: N/A Package: #5 Thanks: 17 Thanked 66 Times in 53 Posts Friends: 3	Re: Biodiesel Define "green" I doubt CARB would allow it as a new car. They seem opposed to anything over B20 http://www.arb.ca.gov/diesel/verdev/...compliance.pdf

10-11-2009, 04:40 AM	#7
philobeddoe ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 492 My Car: 2008 Prius Model: N/A Package: #6 Touring Thanks: 32 Thanked 87 Times in 67 Posts Friends: 6	Re: Biodiesel i hope to build out a bio-diesel chevy suburban down the road ... a toy hauling, road tripping, rolling living room, running on spent soy and corn oil ... leaving nothing in it's wake but the scent of yesterday's french fries well, it's my dream plus, i figure i can slap a turbo on it and really haul ass never been a fan of the '83 mercedes diesel, but i'm glad to hear it works for you the prius works better for me i don't know which one is greener, but i didn't know it was a contest i suppose if it's the mutt's nutts, you can snatch up a bunch of '83 benz diesels, tune 'em up, market 'em and unload 'em for a penny or two good luck with your new business ... let us know how it goes

10-11-2009, 05:36 AM	#8
patsparks An Aussie perspective Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Adelaide South Australia Posts: 9,223 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: N/A Package: Base Thanks: 124 Thanked 180 Times in 138 Posts Friends: 33	Re: Biodiesel I'd like to place an order for 1,000,000 of those 1983 Mercedes Benz and the free bio-diesel to run them. Then I would like an ongoing supply of them growing at an exponential rate to replace the currently about 1,000,000 Prius on the road and those being imported to the USA each year. I doubt this order can be met so people will continue to buy Prius. Point is mute. I'm really happy to read about your environmentally friendly car running on renewable fuel, good on ya! Different strokes for different folks, as long as we all pull together, hey! __________________ All the warranty I need. Still averaging 4.4L/100km across town 2004 silver base model Prius Shark fin, genuine mudflaps, colour matched side mouldings, rear bumper scuff guard, sheepskin seats, BT Plate. I love it!

10-11-2009, 08:22 AM	#9
qbee42 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 10,474 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #7 Thanks: 94 Thanked 387 Times in 289 Posts Friends: 10	Re: Biodiesel Pat, you have hit on the key issue. Biodiesel is great for people who can get it cheep or free, but it's not scalable to the masses in general since the supply is limited. It makes sense to use the biodiesel that is available, which is why it is good we have people like the OP on this thread. I say good for him. Once too many people start embracing biodiesel, it won't be free or cheep anymore. In our area we have seen the same thing happen with pellet stoves that burn compressed wood pellets, corn, or even cherry pits. When they were first introduced, the pellet stoves were a great bargin. The wood pellets were nearly free. Not anymore. In some cases they now cost as much as fuel oil, plus you have the hassle of dealing with a solid fuel. Any time you can use a free waste product it's a good deal. Once that waste product becomes a commodity the equation shifts. Tom __________________ *Black* 2006 package #7 Northern Michigan

10-11-2009, 10:16 AM	#10
Flying White Dutchman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,546 My Car: 2005 Prius Model: Package: Thanks: 3 Thanked 183 Times in 150 Posts Friends: 9	Re: Biodiesel patt... you got a good point there. personaly i dont like this idear because diesel in a old car like that is not burning eco friendly and also will biodiesel not. only some of the co2 will be ofset but not the NOX etc etc.

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