Saturn Vue hybrid

[Tempus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kingofgix @ Apr 25 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]245099[/snapback]</div>

Not according to your spreadsheet. The Prius saves more according to your numbers. And you used $3.50/gallon for the SUV and $2.50/galllon for the Proius to get the cost savings to match.
[/b]

Snort!

Maybe his SUV requires super ultra duper 110 octane? That could account for the price per gallon difference.

[Mirza]

Cosmo,

I'm going to rip apart some of your post piece by piece. I apologize ahead of the time, but I believe I get the courtesy to since you took it yourself. You come off as a bit smug yourself.



"First of all please enter the real world. Normal average everyday consumers really don't give a rats ass about hybrids, they really don't - "

Explain this:

http://priuschat.com/Gallup-Surprise-Most-...ars-t18185.html

(57% of Americans are interested in purchasing a hybrid as their next vehicle).

"and quite frankly, the average American can't run out and drop $25-$35K on a brand new hybrid like the Prius of Ford Escape, let alone the Lexus."

You've got a point there... but no one said they had to.

Also, the average price of a new car is over $20k:
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_average_newcar_price/

"Most people I work with know next to nothing about hybrids, and are not inclined to buy them."

In that case, because most don't know much about them.

"Most people I know, absolutely MOST are not interested in small efficient vehicles. They like 6 cylinder mid size cars. What, you think telling people that you will get 50 mpg will make them willing to buy a car with 110 HP, come on; get of your high falutin' arrogant hybrid happy high horses."

I'm not contending your first two statements - I actually think it's a sad state of affairs that self-image is tied to our vehicles ("machismo").

I don't derive my self-esteem from a freaking cartoon. I can't prove the following statement, but one can deduce that on average hybrid owners have higher IQ's than the norm (given the market that has typically gone for them... more technically minded, geared to technology, etc). Yes, I may be smug. But it's warranted. GASP - yes I said it! And I stand by what I just said!!!! (What I'm not doing is being politically correct)


"If GM can put a car out with a $1000 premium that gets an extra 10-20% MPG so that the consumer may actually save money over the life of the car, that's great, and it will move us a little bit closer to energy independence. By the way, at best it is marginal as to whether or not the Prius will save you any money over the long haul. I did the calculations versus the Matrix, and I would only break even after about 7-8 years. "

Deja vu - I've heard this one before... and I've said this same response years ago: you buy the Prius for the package as well as the fuel economy. But you're right ~ Toyota would greatly benefit hybrid technology by reducing the pricetag.

Also, why not keep it 10 years? At that point it also means much more than just economical sense.

"If GM were to put a very mild hybrid system across there entire fleet, basically just create an idle stop system that shuts down cylinders of their 6 and 8 cylinder models, they could probably increase their entire fleet efficiency by 15% with MINIMAL increase to the cost of the vehicle. Besides the proper application of hybrid technology is in more fuel thirsty vehicles. See the attached spreadsheet for an example. Put mild hybrids in SUV's and get an efficiency gain of 15% and you will save more gas per year then the Prius does."

No argument there. But the savings would be far greater for those people who NEVER NEED ALL THAT SPACE if they went to a midsize Prius or other more fuel efficient vehicle.

"Personally, I think people who answered this particular forum just don't get it. You drive the Pius and suffer from too much smug. You used this forum as nothing other then an outlet to bash GM (though most of the time they do deserve it). Get in touch with people in the real world who aren’t enamored by all the uber-tech."


Who said we would never support a $14k hybrid?

Anyways, like I said earlier:
- a bit of the smug is warranted.
- I don't derive my self-esteem or self-image from a cartoon, let alone you

Also, what else would you expect? Go to you a Ford fan site and I'm sure you'll see some bashing of other auto manufacturers by someone. Same for any number of enthusiasts.

"And yes, I do own a Prius, I just don’t think it’s the solution to all the worlds problems."

Agreed. There's more to the world than autos. But when it comes to autos I think that hybrids (whether mild or up to PHEV's) are or will eventually become the solution.

Oh one more thing. If someone buys a GM vehicle and uses E85, they will be using less oil then the vaulted Prius."

I think others have already contended that argument.

[Mirza]

Off topic alert! (sorry)

About this whole smug issue: quite frankly I'm getting sick of it... but how is that pride only became a crime when it was attributed to liberals???? How is smugness any different from, let's say, someone telling someone else they are going to hell for their beliefs? It implies that the accuser is 'smug in his beliefs'... IMO.

[NuShrike]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 25 2006, 05:17 PM) [snapback]245199[/snapback]</div>

Off topic alert! (sorry)About this whole smug issue: quite frankly I'm getting sick of it... but how is that pride only became a crime when it was attributed to liberals???? How is smugness any different from, let's say, someone telling someone else they are going to hell for their beliefs? It implies that the accuser is 'smug in his beliefs'... IMO. [/b]

With much irony, it was the SUVs drivers whom were smug first. They rode in their high chairs radiating "I'm an all-powerful large tank that can haul through all back-country when I want so back off!" image, along with the American "I don't care about MPG nor sharing" attitude. Hummers are the common symbol of that attitude.

Breaking it down, it's all about image, and the Prius sure wasn't the first vehicle on the block to chase that.

[TonyPSchaefer]

There are polls that suggest that FE is making serious inroads into the psyche of the American car buyer.[/b]

There are large groups of well-paid professionals whose job it is to know what's on the minds of Americans. They call these people Marketing Departments. Here's what I see more and more when I watch car commercials:
- Stress on horsepower is dropping.
- Emphasis on big and shiny as the sole selling technique is waning.
- I have seen entire commercials in which the word horsepower was never used.
- I've seen commercials that stress fuel efficiency and EPA mileage estimates.

There are, of course, the exceptions. There always are. But next time you see a car commercial for mainstream, average Joe or American family car, you'll see what I mean.

Oh yeah, and since this is my first post on this thread, let me say that if we improve the average MPG rating of American vehicles by a mere 1%, we will save more gasoline than there is in AMWAR. For that reason, any technology that increases a vehicle's mileage - by even 1% - gets my vote as an official "good start". The market will demand further development and improvements.

[Blegate]

Back to the VUE....

One small step for improving the earth...one large leap for GM.

I have a Vue but its not green. I was looking forward to replacing my 4 Cyl Vue with a Greenline but after learning about the MPG I said forget. The Saturn dealer told me the Greenline won't come close to the Toyota models (with regards to MPG). What also gets me is that Saturn is doing away with the impact resistant doors in favor of traditional metal. They are doing this so they can improve the built time on the cars - stupid. They (GM) has an awesome opportunity to turn Saturn around by coming out with a better hybrid product with light weight impact resistant door. Just blows me away that they can't change....

I know this doesn't add a lot to this discussion but I had to get this off my chest...
b

[john1701a]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 25 2006, 07:17 PM) [snapback]245199[/snapback]</div>

quite frankly I'm getting sick of it[/b]

I was sickened 6 years ago, when my Prius delivery wait began.

SUV owners were horribly smug. Hearing the statement "it's only a car" when referring to Prius was very disheartening. A few even freaked out with the impression that I was leading a campaign to force them out of their SUV, clearly not understanding how the technology actually worked.

Then it got worse. They started using the term "car" for refer to their SUV, a crude attempt make their truck an acceptable vehicle for non-truck purposes (like their daily commute to the office).

Needless to say, I've been dealing with smugness and disingenious intent for far too long now.

[tripp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Apr 25 2006, 04:17 PM) [snapback]245115[/snapback]</div>

A goal to "increase their entire fleet efficiency by 15%" is setting the bar way too low and clearly only a short-term solution, since all that would do is keep the demand problem from getting worse.
[/b]

john, considering where they (GM) are right now (way the F behind) in the hybrid game this is about the best that they could be expected to do. It's a good thing, especially if they were to introduce it across all lines. They won't, at least not for a while. If it exposes more people to hybrids, great. hopefully it won't be flop.

I agree that it's setting the bar way too low, but GM is really going to have to play catch up. They've sunk everything into FCV and there's no way that that's gonna save the company. It's too far out and the volumes won't float the company (nevermind the infrastructure issues, and assuming that BEVs and PHEVs don't make them pointless).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Apr 25 2006, 07:25 PM) [snapback]245234[/snapback]</div>

Oh yeah, and since this is my first post on this thread, let me say that if we improve the average MPG rating of American vehicles by a mere 1%, we will save more gasoline than there is in AMWAR.
[/b]

Well, Tony, to be picky, there's technically no gasoline in ANWR, just a lotta oil. But, yeah, your pretty close. In the 50% case peak production from ANWR is something like 900K barrels per day. About 4% of our daily consumption. Of course, it'll take 10 years to get to that level (if we started now) and by then it would be less if we maintain the status quo. It might actually make more sense later than now. Hopefully, we'll never be forced to be so short sighted.

Even in the 5% case (15 billion barrels recoverable), if we could get all of the ANWR oil as fast as we wanted, we'd deplete the field(s) in 2 years!

[Salsawonder]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cosmo @ Apr 25 2006, 01:23 PM) [snapback]245026[/snapback]</div>

And yes, I do own a Prius, I just don’t think it’s the solution to all the worlds problems. Oh one more thing. If someone buys a GM vehicle and uses E85, they will be using less oil then the vaulted Prius.

Get over yourselves.
[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 25 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]245090[/snapback]</div>

E85 on a large scale is a joke. If you can find it, great. Of course, you'll have to burn more of it until the engines are redesigned to fully take advantage of the high compression properties of the fuel.
[/b]

I am "happy" to drive my car. The term smug gets applied to us because we are happy with our vehicles and not losing sleep over the higher gas prices the way some of these folks are doing with their gas hogs. You could hope that this would be a first step and that further research will improve what they are offering but GM's history does not support them taking that approach.

[Mirza]

Also, the analysis on the Camry hybrid vs the 4 cylinder is completely flawed given the arguments cosmos proposed.

Take a stand ~ are you (or your view of the average American) for horsepower or fuel economy? Because, by argument, you can't (in terms of debate) claim all this nonsense about Americans only caring about V6 power and whatnot, then completely turn around and compare the Camry hybrid to the 4 cylinder version. Not only does the Camry hybrid have the best fuel economy (both highway and city), it has greater power than the four cylinder.

Some people (like cosmos and other critics; and others have pointed this out though I suppose I'm taking it on from a different angle) either ONLY look at horsepower or ONLY look at fuel economy at their selective convenience. Judging a hybrid? Look ONLY at the fuel economy and ONLY at the horsepower of the less powerful ones (though they perform extremely well in the real world). Judging a typical car? Look ONLY at horsepower when it favors your viewpoint.

The counterargument to this ill-conceived point of view is to look at the hybrid vehicle as a package: best emissions, improved performance, and best fuel economy (as a consumer). You don't just look at one and decide the validity of the vehicle based on only one aspect (which, mind you, is one of the damn good aspects of the vehicle).