Saturn Vue hybrid

[PriusDad]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 23 2006, 10:14 PM) [snapback]260186[/snapback]</div>

And the popularity of little cars, like Scion, has skyrocketed lately.
[/b]

By the way, when we were going through the process of buying our Prius, we spent quite a bit of time at the dealership looking at all the various cars on the lot. Interestingly, every current Scion model has (according to the window sticker anyway), worse emissions than the average car in its class. In fact the new RAV4 has better emissions than all of the Scion models. And Scion fuel consumption is only average in its class.

I asked the dealer why this was, and he said that Toyota wanted to keep the price of the Scion line down. The Scion is targeted at a younger audience looking to buy their first new car. For this group, price and styling were their number one and number two concerns. Consequently, these cars don't have the same engine computers or variable valve timing mechanics that regular Toyotas have.

I found it sad that fuel consumption and emissions aren't even at the front of list for the next generation of car buyers. Odd, as the period immediately after college is generally the most idealistic time of one's life. It seems to imply that the car buying priorities for the current generation growing up in the midst of Global Warming and high gas prices isn't all that different from the previous generations (In fact, it's similar enough to have a major car manufacturer base an entire line of vehicles on that premise.)

In another way, I found it doubly sad to think that Toyota, who I look upon as a forward looking company when it comes to emissions and fuel savings, could be responsible for producing such a 'dirty' line of cars. It just shows that (as I mentioned in a previous post) the bottom line for any car manufacturer is to sell cars. Even Toyota.

*Sigh*

So be aware that interest in small cars is not always an indicator of interest in better mileage or lower emissions. It is also an issue of price and styling. And if you are out looking at small cars and want to help the environment or reduce our dependence on foreign oil, be sure to look at those mileage numbers and emissions stickers.

Peter.

[finman]

http://www.greenercars.com/byclass.html#COM

and then the next category of small wagons...

Scions are ranked in top 5. What I don't get is the PZEV cars don't necessarily rank better than ULEV or the tier X, bin X cars. Partial Zero emission vehicle must not mean what it says!

Any way to explain the differences? I'm just lost with the PZEV designation for a normal Otto-cycle gas-only cars. How is it possible?

Cheers,

Curt.

[john1701a]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 02:28 PM) [snapback]260464[/snapback]</div>

So be aware that interest in small cars is not always an indicator of interest in better mileage or lower emissions. It is also an issue of price and styling. And if you are out looking at small cars and want to help the environment or reduce our dependence on foreign oil, be sure to look at those mileage numbers and emissions stickers.
[/b]

Obviously.

It frustrates me to no end when reporters pretend that a single factor is solely responsible for the purchase of a vehicle.

The trend toward smaller cars is absolutely inevitable. The swing to the opposite direction simply cannot be prevented. It's more a matter of to what degree, how much and for how long... not if.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]260454[/snapback]</div>

Don't kid yourself. No car company is in it for the spirit of innovation or the exhilaration of a challenge. They're in it to sell cars.
[/b]

You make interesting assumptions.

Of course their purpose is to sell vehicles.

Whether or not they allow their engineers to indulge is a benefit. Toyota does, even allowing for retooling. GM places heavy restrictions, requiring the reuse of many components.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]260454[/snapback]</div>

While demand for Prii is outpacing supply, it's probably not true for hybrids in general.[/b]

Generalization is insincere at best. Clearly, we are ready to address the designs at a more fundamental level now. What for the new thread...

[Jonnycat26]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ May 24 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]260508[/snapback]</div>

Any way to explain the differences? I'm just lost with the PZEV designation for a normal Otto-cycle gas-only cars. How is it possible?
[/b]

PZEV is possible with just about any car with the right emissions equipment and the right kind of gas tank (to prevent evaporative losses). That's why you have PZEV BMWs and Ford Explorers and Chevy Cobalts. Anyone can do it, it's just more expensive to do so, which is why you usually see them in CARB markets.

[cwerdna]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]260454[/snapback]</div>

I live in the SFO Bay Area, one of the highest per capita Prius locations in the country (I think only LA is higher.) I see a lot of Prii on the road, but the number of new large vehicles hasn't dropped in my estimation. Recently, another PriusChat member posted an article about a dealership in Washinton D.C. that was having trouble keeping larger SUVs and trucks in stock because of the demand (despite gasoline prices.) And in the more rural midwest, where trucks and SUVs are probably more of a necessity than here, there has been no appreciable decline in sales.
[/b]

I've only been back to the SF Bay Area myself for about 1.5 years I have to say, I see tons of HUGE SUVs on the road here. It's crazy! For the time I've been back, I haven't noticed a significant decline or change in terms of large SUVs. There % seems much higher than in WA state (where I lived for 7.5 years) and in Southern Cal where I visited earlier in the month (and I lived long ago for 4.5 years).

From http://www.autonews.com/files/1205totveh.pdf, for 2005, 16.9 million vehicles were sold in the US. 7.9 million were cars and 9 million were light trucks. There's only been a modest decline in the % of light trucks sold vs. cars compared to 2004. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...05/314644.html has a table covering 2004 and 2003. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...TruckFleet.htm has a table of the % of light trucks making up the US light duty vehicle fleet for 1979-2004.

[cwerdna]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusDad @ May 24 2006, 12:28 PM) [snapback]260464[/snapback]</div>

By the way, when we were going through the process of buying our Prius, we spent quite a bit of time at the dealership looking at all the various cars on the lot. Interestingly, every current Scion model has (according to the window sticker anyway), worse emissions than the average car in its class. In fact the new RAV4 has better emissions than all of the Scion models. And Scion fuel consumption is only average in its class.

I asked the dealer why this was, and he said that Toyota wanted to keep the price of the Scion line down. The Scion is targeted at a younger audience looking to buy their first new car. For this group, price and styling were their number one and number two concerns. Consequently, these cars don't have the same engine computers or variable valve timing mechanics that regular Toyotas have.
[/b]

Interestingly, I looked up the whole Scion lineup (w/automatics) and compared it to a 4 cylinder 4WD automatic RAV4 on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm. You're basically right. Although the Scions produce fewer tons of greenhouse gasses, they all have far lower EPA pollution scores than the RAV4. I'm a little surprised here too.

However, I seriously doubt a teenager looking for a car would pick one car over another or refuse to buy a particular make/model over emissions. I don't think the parents would care that much either. From a business perspective, I think Toyota's priorities for Scion were correct. They also wanted another brand that younger people would think is more "hip" and be more appealing to the tuner community where there were more mods available (think Honda Civic and Acura Integra/RSX crowd).

[j24816]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 23 2006, 11:02 AM) [snapback]243991[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I think this vehicle makes perfect sense from where GM stands. They havn't spent the time and money researching and developing hybrid technology. They know that they blew it by sitting on their hands so now they have to play catch-up and get their name out there. The only way that they can do that right now is with this sorta vehicle. It's not the most elegant thing in the world but it's something and I bet that it's going to be much more successful than the other hybrid SUVs on the market. This is probably one of the few good decisions that GM's made recently. Hopefully they'll do this sorta thing across the board. I'll take a 10% increase in the fleet's FE any day of the week. We desperately need to get there and anything that's a step in that direction is a good thing.
[/b]

I agree with the points you are making, but have to comment that (in my opinion) the problems GM is facing are due to 'sorta' getting it for several decades now.

[JackDodge]

Consumer Reports February 2007 issue isn't kind to the Saturn Vue hybrid.

"[Saturn Vue Green Line] is a disappointment. Fuel consumption is not impressive for a hybrid...below-par craftsmanship."

"Handling is clumsy, with slow, imprecise steering."

"The Green Line is a very mild hybrid, which cannot move solely on electric power."

The Green Line is front-wheet drive only and delivers 24 mpg overall, "only 1 mpg better than the AWD four-cylinder Toyota RAV 4."

[john1701a]

At what point does the term "vaporware" no longer apply?

If disappointing reviews continue to plague Vue-Hybrid GreenLine, the Vue-Hybrid Two-Mode coming later this year could overshadow it so much people won't even realize there was originally a different design available. GM may quietly let production dwindle in favor of the much more capable model.

Obviously, I'll be hoping that happens. The pitiful emissions rating of only LEV makes the label of "green" totally inappropriate anyway. But now that the MPG numbers are rolling in and they look ugly, the party is over. Let the better design have the spotlight exclusively.

Two hybrid models so different was never a good idea. Consumers have a hard enough time already making sense of the choices available. Figuring out how one will perform in real-world driving based on those misleading EPA estimates and considering how important the price tag is, while at the same time watching the volatile cost of gas, is simply too much.

Competition in this market will heat up. The weak face quite a challenge.

[JimN]

I reference GM because those are the cars I've driven. The last Chrysler in the family was a 73 New Yorker and the last Ford was a 60 stattion wagon.

Passenger cars have been getting smaller since the 80's so if the buyer wanted something with the same capacity one had to go to a van, truck, or SUV.

The criteria for the purchase of a new car included: Same payload, Smaller size (less to wax), Better mpg. I can pack the same amount of stuff in my 2006 Prius as I can in my 2000 Oldsmobile. Both are midsize cars. The Prius is 21 inches shorter, 6 inches narrower, and just a shade taller. The Olds gets 25mpg, the Prius 49mpg, a 96% improvement. As an added plus I should have lower maintenance with the Prius.

It's good news that Saturn will increase their mpg by 10%. I really hope that benefits someone. I just think that it is too little, too late. If they tried to offer me a car that gets 27.5mpg I'd have said no thanks.

It is unfortunate that GM doesn't understand QUALITY. They are replacing the plastic doors with metal. So now the Saturn buyer can pay $1000 more (maybe) for 10% better mpg and less quality. What happens when they don't sell? GM will say, "See, we told you Americans don't want hybrids."

Now for some "Toyota bashing": Why couldn't the Prius have dent resistant plastic doors?

For the record, if my Prius had as many problems as my Olds I'd probably be accused of Toyota bashing. IMHO recounting personal experiences is not "bashing". To those who think it is, stop whining and put your effort into getting better cars built.