Honda will put Hydrogen Fuel Cell car into production in 2008.

[Marlin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Car and Driver")</div>

Honda is planning to market a vehicle based on this FCX concept in limited numbers in 2008 in Japan and the U.S. Pricing and/or lease arrangements have yet to be decided.[/b]

Honda FCX concept - Previews

[Beryl Octet]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]326901[/snapback]</div>

Honda FCX concept - Previews
[/b]

This is an electric car with a fuel cell that replaces batteries? Or does it run off of hydrogen. I was confused by the article, because it talked about it being all electric, but also mentioned the need for water evaporation, which I assume would be a byproduct of hydrogen combustion.

[Marlin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 2 2006, 12:39 PM) [snapback]326906[/snapback]</div>

This is an electric car with a fuel cell that replaces batteries? Or does it run off of hydrogen. I was confused by the article, because it talked about it being all electric, but also mentioned the need for water evaporation, which I assume would be a byproduct of hydrogen combustion.
[/b]

A Hydrogen Fuel Cell car is an electric car. It's just that the electricity is being produced by a Hydrogen Fuel Cell which, through some sort of magic, creates electricity from hydrogen and oxygen. The Honda car is aparently a sort of hybrid, in that it has batteries as well, to give it extra power when it needs it, much like the Prius.

[Beryl Octet]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 01:00 PM) [snapback]326923[/snapback]</div>

A Hydrogen Fuel Cell car is an electric car. It's just that the electricity is being produced by a Hydrogen Fuel Cell which, through some sort of magic, creates electricity from hydrogen and oxygen. The Honda car is aparently a sort of hybrid, in that it has batteries as well, to give it extra power when it needs it, much like the Prius.
[/b]

Thanks. When I think "electric car", I think plug-in. So you get a bunch of hydrogen molecules, fill up the fuel cell, and it generates electricity and drips out some water. The battery is probably to recover braking energy etc. Sounds like it should be pretty efficient, other than the part about gathering up a bunch of hydrogen molecules.

[qbee42]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 2 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]326932[/snapback]</div>

Thanks. When I think "electric car", I think plug-in. So you get a bunch of hydrogen molecules, fill up the fuel cell, and it generates electricity and drips out some water. The battery is probably to recover braking energy etc. Sounds like it should be pretty efficient, other than the part about gathering up a bunch of hydrogen molecules.
[/b]

The battery also serves to average out the power demand. Fuel cells work best when delivering a steady amount of current. Otherwise you have to size the fuel cell for the highest power demand.

Tom

[dipper]

Wasn't the range of the Honda FC car around 100 miles?

Dang, I don't want to live in a FC station.

[Tideland Prius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 10:00 AM) [snapback]326923[/snapback]</div>

A Hydrogen Fuel Cell car is an electric car. It's just that the electricity is being produced by a Hydrogen Fuel Cell which, through some sort of magic, creates electricity from hydrogen and oxygen. The Honda car is aparently a sort of hybrid, in that it has batteries as well, to give it extra power when it needs it, much like the Prius.
[/b]

Electrolysis (or rather reverse electrolysis) is the word you want.

Hydrogen is sent through the fuel cell stacks. The denser the stacks, the more it can extract from the hydrogen. The H+ is separated from the electron (which will produce the electricity). Later, it's combined with O2 sucked from the outside to form water.

[Marlin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Oct 2 2006, 05:33 PM) [snapback]327137[/snapback]</div>

Wasn't the range of the Honda FC car around 100 miles?[/b]

It was, but the current version has a 350 mile range.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Car and Driver")</div>

Coupled to a new lithium-ion storage battery and a 127-horsepower AC synchronous motor, the energy source provides a range of up to 350 miles, according to Honda.[/b]

[Marlin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 2 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]326932[/snapback]</div>

Sounds like it should be pretty efficient, other than the part about gathering up a bunch of hydrogen molecules.
[/b]

The anti-Fuel Cell crowd will point out that creating hydrogen from Natural Gas or electrolysis, as it would be initially done, may actually be less efficient than using the Natural Gas or Electricity directly.

However, they refuse to consider the second wave of hydrogen production techniques, such as using algae and the sun, or geothermal energy in iceland, or my favorite, windmills on ships utilizing the strong winds in the open ocean. There is a ton of research being done on alternate, renewable source of hydrogen production. Everything from algae to bacteria, to geothermal, to using sunlight to directly split water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Here is an article about a ship built by a German company for testing the feasibility of windmill ships:
Hydrogen-producing ship will use wind

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 2 2006, 10:00 AM) [snapback]326923[/snapback]</div>

The Honda car is aparently a sort of hybrid, in that it has batteries as well, to give it extra power when it needs it, much like the Prius.
[/b]

Every FCV that's ever been put on the road has been a FC/battery hybrid. Most FC proponents fail to mention that the vehicles still rely on traction batteries since full-on battery cars are typically written off as needing battery technology that we don't yet have.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Beryl Octet @ Oct 2 2006, 10:17 AM) [snapback]326932[/snapback]</div>

Thanks. When I think "electric car", I think plug-in.[/b]

Good news! You still get to plug in a FCV. Just like the Prius. You have to shove SOMETHING in the tank. Might as well call it plugging in.

Sounds like it should be pretty efficient, other than the part about gathering up a bunch of hydrogen molecules.
[/b]

This is SUCH a great quote! You are quite right. Very efficient system... right up until the point that you start to count all the energy inputs. Suddently it becomes WAY less efficient than a BEV or a Prius.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Oct 2 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]327109[/snapback]</div>

Otherwise you have to size the fuel cell for the highest power demand.
[/b]

Which of course would quite simply not fit in a passenger vehicle. And would likely cost several million$ instead of just the one.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Oct 3 2006, 12:26 PM) [snapback]327452[/snapback]</div>

It was, but the current version has a 350 mile range.
[/b]

That's "projected" range for this decidedly "concept" vehicle as far as I know. I have yet to hear of a FCV ever actually driving better than 200 miles. No reason why it can't be done, of course. But we haven't yet seen one on the road with that sort of range.

With all this current talk of "sales" starting to crop up, it'll be interesting to see how this goes. The companies that made EVs ten years ago claimed that it cost them $100k to build each car, and they were forced to put a sales price on them of about $40k. A big loss! How will they manage this hurdle when the car they're starting with comes with a build price-tag of $1million?