High-End Hydrogen: BMW puts its dual-fuel V12 on the road

[cwerdna]

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...E/61127017/1009

[Tideland Prius]

sweeet.

I think we had a debate whether to call this a hybrid. Technically it is, since it's two modes of propulsion. Either way, it's performing the exact duty that the Prius intended to do - bridge the gap between today and tomorrow.

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Dec 10 2006, 06:33 PM) [snapback]360211[/snapback]</div>

bridge the gap between today and tomorrow.
[/b]

With a big emphasis on "yesterday." H2 ICE? Using a fuel of the distant future with technology from the distant past. I don't get it. The H2 will most likely come from NG (or some other fossil fuel). Why not burn NG directly and make the process at least somewhat efficient? Or better yet, why not do something green AND efficient (and have some real performance) and go electric? This thing will get about 5mpg when running on H2. How big would you like your tank?!

[john1701a]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Dec 10 2006, 08:33 PM) [snapback]360211[/snapback]</div>

I think we had a debate whether to call this a hybrid.[/b]

According to SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) the definition is: "A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle with two or more energy storage systems, both of which must provide propulsion power."

Anywho, what's the point of this? Will an efficient & affordable model ever be prototyped? And how practical would this actually be? A tiny hydrogen fueled engine may make sense on a hybrid many years from now, but this non-electric hybrid V12 certainly doesn't.

[cwerdna]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Dec 10 2006, 07:38 PM) [snapback]360231[/snapback]</div>

Anywho, what's the point of this? Will an efficient & affordable model ever be prototyped? And how practical would this actually be? A tiny hydrogen fueled engine may make sense on a hybrid many years from now, but this non-electric hybrid V12 certainly doesn't.
[/b]

It would be interesting if the hydrogen could be economically produced using renewable energy sources such as wind or solar. From what I understand now, the amount of energy input needed for extract hydrogen from water via electrolysis is far greater than the energy output. So using fossil fuels to do that would be a bad thing.

I remember seeing a documentary (might have been Thomas Friedman's) a few months ago and it featured a family w/a Honda FCX hydrogen fuel cell car. They filled up at a hydrogen station that generated it via solar. I just found a blurb on it at http://world.honda.com/news/2003/c031002.html

Kinda OT, Mythbusters in an episode was able to run an old GM car briefly on hydrogen. They held the hose from a hydrogen tank and fed it straight into the engine (very dangerous if you ask me). In the middle of the 2nd try, they had a nasty backfire in the middle and decided to stop.

[fshagan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Dec 10 2006, 07:07 PM) [snapback]360222[/snapback]</div>

With a big emphasis on "yesterday." H2 ICE? Using a fuel of the distant future with technology from the distant past. I don't get it. The H2 will most likely come from NG (or some other fossil fuel). Why not burn NG directly and make the process at least somewhat efficient? Or better yet, why not do something green AND efficient (and have some real performance) and go electric? This thing will get about 5mpg when running on H2. How big would you like your tank?!
[/b]

BMW is getting around the large tank dilemma by using liquid hydrogen. My local paper had an article on it a few months ago because the test track for them is around here, and they showed a picture of the "filling station nozzle" ... a two tube affair with a large clamp on the end of it.

I don't think its practical; I think its more in the "pure research" category.

Meanwhile, a few miles down the shoreline just past Malibu, they had an alternative fuel car show in Santa Monica. I couldn't make it because of health problems, but wanted to go. A couple of the electric car companies were there with pure electric models they were showing.

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Dec 10 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]360271[/snapback]</div>

It would be interesting if the hydrogen could be economically produced using renewable energy sources such as wind or solar.[/b]

Yup... that would be interesting. And they do that in ... is it iceland?

From what I understand now, the amount of energy input needed for extract hydrogen from water via electrolysis is far greater than the energy output. So using fossil fuels to do that would be a bad thing.[/b]

Since H2 is only an energy carrier, there will ALWAYS be less output than was originally input. Can't make something out of nothing. H2 is NOT an energy source. We have to make it. And we make it by adding LOTS of some other form of energy, and get a bit of it back when we recombine it with O to make water. H2 is a proven, quite low-efficiency way to store and transport energy.

I remember seeing a documentary (might have been Thomas Friedman's) a few months ago and it featured a family w/a Honda FCX hydrogen fuel cell car. They filled up at a hydrogen station that generated it via solar. I just found a blurb on it at http://world.honda.com/news/2003/c031002.html[/b]

That same amount of solar energy would take you 4x further down the road in a battery EV.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 10 2006, 11:06 PM) [snapback]360275[/snapback]</div>

BMW is getting around the large tank dilemma by using liquid hydrogen. [/b]

Oh yeah. I forgot about that, though I've seen a cut-away of that tank on display. Can you just imagine the energy input and storage/distribution issues of LIQUID H2? The gas is difficult and energy-intensive enough!

[Tideland Prius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Dec 11 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]360654[/snapback]</div>

Yup... that would be interesting. And they do that in ... is it iceland?

[/b]

Yeah. Iceland is almost oil-free. Electricity is from geo-thermal energy. I believe that is also the method used to create H2 from H20.

[fshagan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Dec 11 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]360654[/snapback]</div>

RE: BMW's use of liquid H2:
Oh yeah. I forgot about that, though I've seen a cut-away of that tank on display. Can you just imagine the energy input and storage/distribution issues of LIQUID H2? The gas is difficult and energy-intensive enough!
[/b]

I think its unworkable on a large scale. Gas is dangerous enough with static sparks causing fires at stations. Imagine what would happen if a H2 station went up.