Honda's hydrogen fuel cell concept car to go into production next year

[Marlin]

Honda's hydrogen fuel cell concept car to go into production next year

They are also developing a home refueling station that converts natural gas to hydrogen.

[finman]

Why? do we have that much excess energy to waste doing conversions just to get hydrogen to run a car? From what I've read, it takes 4 times the amount of energy to move a car using hydrogen than battery/electric. Are we, as a species, stupid as this? Can we not do the right thing and just get on with electric cars? Wow, I really, really thought we were smarter.

[daniel]

I want to know how far it will go on a fill, since, for now anyway, the only place to fill it is at home. That's worse than an EV where, at least if someone will let you use their electrical outlet, you can re-charge it away from home.

However, if they can really do this and make money at that price, it is encouraging for the advocates of fuel cells. $500/mo lease is $6,000 per year. Since it's only a lease, they still own the car, so it's kind of like paying $6,000/yr interest on your car loan. Taking 6.8% as a typical auto loan rate (from bankrate.com) $6K/yr is the interest on an $88K car. Very high end, but marketed as a luxury car there are people who would buy it.

Once again Japan comes through before Detroit.

The article does not say, however, if the natural gas to hydrogen converter would be included in the lease price.

I would see this car, not as a practical vehicle, but as a proof of concept for fuel cells.

Electricity is still more convenient, though. It's easier to fill my Xebra with electrons than to pump hydrogen from a converter fed by natural gas.

[Marlin]

Actually, another USA Today article implies that the home filling station may not be available initially and that Honda would lease the car in the few areas that do have the beginnings of a hydrogen infrastructure, such as parts of California.

The fuel cell powered GM Sequel (an SUV by the way), just made a 300 mile trip a couple of days ago on a single tank of hydrogen.

[jhinton]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ May 18 2007, 08:47 AM) [snapback]444763[/snapback]</div>

Why? do we have that much excess energy to waste doing conversions just to get hydrogen to run a car? From what I've read, it takes 4 times the amount of energy to move a car using hydrogen than battery/electric. Are we, as a species, stupid as this? Can we not do the right thing and just get on with electric cars? Wow, I really, really thought we were smarter.
[/b]

You didn't read the story did you? The home fill station is a co-generation plant. It heats the home, provides electricity for the home, and makes hydrogen for the car. This is much more efficient than just stripping hydrogen from natural gas or using electrolysis.

I'm excited about the FCX because of the design. It is a very innovative design that has lots of internal room for the size of the vehicle. It also has a very aerodynamic shape, I would say even better than our beloved Prius. It is also a proof of concept for an electric car. All Honda has to do is replace the fuel cell and storage tank with a battery pack and you have an EV.

[finman]

"All Honda has to do is replace the fuel cell and storage tank with a battery pack and you have an EV."


EXACTLY!! For transport, hydrogen is a loser. Less efficient, harder to 'contain' (pressure vessels), no cold weather runs (water freezes), limited lifecycle (the membranes of fuel cells wear out a bit too quickly).

Darrelld's RAV4 EV is "proof of concept" of an EV vehicle. The GM-crushed EV1 is "proof of concept" of an EV vehicle. The Rav EV lives on 12 years later. not so much for the EV1. EVnut.com and read all about it

My point is the numbers do not add up for transport. I will agree stand-alone power is where hydrogen can work. But for cars and getting me to and fro, all-EV is better. And not by 1 or 2 times....FOUR TIMES.

Let's see travel 4 miles on EV, or 1 mile with hydrogen and walk the other 3, using equivalent energies.

Fossil fuels and hydrogen are still dirty. and will ALWAYS be so..it's a fossil fuel. Electricity is somewhat dirty...BUT CAN BE clean and renewable. Is there something that is SO compelling with hydrogen...oh, wait, it's the oil companies. They LOVE ineffiecient hydrogen, since fossil fuels are required.

Sorry, I'm no expert by any means, but from what i can gather, there's simply a better way than hydrogen to power cars and that's EVs and that's been around 12 years. WTF. Why add complexity of hydrogen conversion? It's a waste, plain and simple.

[mpgFanatic]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ May 18 2007, 08:38 AM) [snapback]444761[/snapback]</div>

Honda's hydrogen fuel cell concept car to go into production next year

They are also developing a home refueling station that converts natural gas to hydrogen.
[/b]

SWEET, I get my very own hydrogen filling station! Oh wait, I don't get natural gas.

[Tideland Prius]

The key here is that Honda announced it last year that 2008 will be the year. Honda announces again that 2008 will be the year.

Now if they produce it next year, then that shows the public the difference between Honda and GM. Honda delivers.

[daniel]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mpgFanatic @ May 18 2007, 08:50 AM) [snapback]444888[/snapback]</div>

SWEET, I get my very own hydrogen filling station! Oh wait, I don't get natural gas.
[/b]

Maybe you could buy a machine that would convert fuel oil to natural gas. Then you could have the fuel oil delivered to your house, convert it to natural gas, then convert that to hydrogen, so you could drive a car you could only fuel at home... just like an EV... except that an EV can be plugged in anywhere...

[fshagan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 18 2007, 05:35 AM) [snapback]444779[/snapback]</div>

I want to know how far it will go on a fill, since, for now anyway, the only place to fill it is at home. That's worse than an EV where, at least if someone will let you use their electrical outlet, you can re-charge it away from home.

However, if they can really do this and make money at that price, it is encouraging for the advocates of fuel cells. $500/mo lease is $6,000 per year. Since it's only a lease, they still own the car, so it's kind of like paying $6,000/yr interest on your car loan. Taking 6.8% as a typical auto loan rate (from bankrate.com) $6K/yr is the interest on an $88K car. Very high end, but marketed as a luxury car there are people who would buy it.
[/b]

You would have to count depreciation into the monthly cost as well. A $50,000 luxury car loses some to depreciation as soon as you drive it off the lot, and I don't know what that figure is. But using the Infinity M45 as a comparison, at $50,000 new with an expected end value of $15,000 after 5 years (about what a similar 2002 Infinity Q45 is worth today) you're spending $7,000 a year in depreciation alone. (I picked the Infinity models because they are Honda's luxury line.)

Its a good development, and here in California where our "hydrogen highway" is under construction, I would consider a smaller, lighter, higher mileage commuter car with a 300 mile range. But then I would consider an EV with a 120 mile range as well. The co-gen fuel cells that Honda is working on are attractive also if built into the "home infrastructure" from the get go, especially if they are more efficient than the large electricity generating station (including line losses from the power plant to the home).