Another PHEV bit

[tripp]

Interesting article by Prof. Andrew Alfonso Frank from UC Davis regarding PHEVs. Nothing really new but I do like the idea of storing cheap off-peak electricity in the car's battery and then pumping it back into the grid during peak hours.

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com...story?id=44254

[tideland_raj]

Originally posted by tripp@Mar 6 2006, 07:33 PM
Interesting article by Prof. Andrew Alfonso Frank from UC Davis regarding PHEVs. Nothing really new but I do like the idea of storing cheap off-peak electricity in the car's battery and then pumping it back into the grid during peak hours.

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com...story?id=44254

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Nice article, tripp.

In addition, in most places in the US, outdoor plugs are available everywhere in our society. Thus, in contrast, to the much touted hydrogen economy, there is no need for massive infrastructure development and construction.

Have a major issue with this... sure, the infrastructure is there, but there's no billing structure. Seems simple, right? Well, what happens when a few desperate or uncaring PHEV drivers start sucking up other people's electricity... because there is no way to pay for "a quick charge-up"?
Backlash... and that's not what we need.

PHEV's are most definitely the wave of the future, as we move to a less polluting electric car future. (mmm... elec. car + wind/solar/nuke power... clean & yummy), and ditch the fossil fuel economy. But there needs to be an industry or government initiative to get gas stations to sell wattage or PHEV's will suffer.

I think toyota was right to not make the Prius PHEV to begin with... this will take time, but as the clear commander of the automotive industry, they need to be slow with this. Let the hobbyists blaze the trail, and do some market research, but once the time is right, we'll need infrastrcutre also for complete success.

btw, that dude needs to either update his pic, or his attire from 60's era HK/Japanese business man look

[espoafd]

Originally posted by tideland_raj@Mar 6 2006, 11:17 PM
Have a major issue with this... sure, the infrastructure is there, but there's no billing structure. Seems simple, right? Well, what happens when a few desperate or uncaring PHEV drivers start sucking up other people's electricity... because there is no way to pay for "a quick charge-up"?

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I disagree. The same argument could be used about people plugging in their computers. But many buisnesses cater to wireless computer users. I need to heat my propane tanks for my hot-air balloon in the winter. The hotels that I stay in are very accomidating because they want my buisness.

A charging station at a restaurant would be an incentive for EV users to eat at the establishment.

I was wondering if someone could tell us how the charging stations work in the few areas that have them.

[tripp]

Originally posted by tideland_raj@Mar 6 2006, 11:17 PM
I think toyota was right to not make the Prius PHEV to begin with... this will take time, but as the clear commander of the automotive industry, they need to be slow with this.  Let the hobbyists blaze the trail, and do some market research, but once the time is right, we'll need infrastrcutre also for complete success.

Thankee Raj. Yeah, I think that you're spot on about Toyota's strategy. PHEV's are very close to prime time but the battery technology isn't quite there. Actually, it is but I think that most people aren't very forward thinking and are quick to avoid things that require even slight changes to their routine. The new battery technology, particularly the huge advances in recharge/discharge rates are gonna be huge. Particularly in the commercial/industrial realm.

There will be some challenges to overcome with regards to charging patterns, but I think the utilities will help with this. The great thing about the PHEV movement is that it doesn't disenfranchise all of the energy players. The utilities, which have a lot of clout, are undoubtedly interested in the PHEV concept. Over time, they too will get pinched as cheap home power generation becomes a reality. But it will be gradual and they still own the grid, which will be relevant for quite some time.

btw, that dude needs to either update his pic, or his attire from 60's era HK/Japanese business man look

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Ain't it hillarious? I suppose it gives him the absent minded professor look or something.

[darelldd]

Originally posted by espoafd@Mar 6 2006, 09:25 PM
I disagree. The same argument could be used about people plugging in their computers. But many buisnesses cater to wireless computer users. I need to heat my propane tanks for my hot-air balloon in the winter. The hotels that I stay in are very accomidating because they want my buisness.

A charging station at a restaurant would be an incentive for EV users to eat at the establishment.

Great thinking! And that is indeed how our 1000+ public chargers in CA work now. You don't pay for ANY of them. Not yet, at least. Many businesses put them in (Costco) because they realize that the pennies that they pay for power translates into $100's of purchase dollars as the folks shop while charging. I go out of my way to patronize businesses that have chargers for this very reason. Even if I don't charge!

The point that electricity is everywhere doesn't mean that we won't eventually have a pay-as-you-charge situation. The point is that it is EASY to find power. Charging for it is a no-brainer once it catches on. My thinking is that there will be many, MANY places that will offer a free slow (110V) charge, and if you've on a cross-country trip, you can stop at a dedicated high-voltage fast charger, and pay for a 10-minute recharge to get you on the way again. But then you arrive at your hotel, and plug in overnight for free for a full tank the next morning.

I was wondering if someone could tell us how the charging stations work in the few areas that have them.

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Done!

[darelldd]

Originally posted by tideland_raj@Mar 6 2006, 09:17 PM
btw, that dude needs to either update his pic, or his attire from 60's era HK/Japanese business man look

Andy is a pretty hip dude. A great guy! The picture in that article is ancient.

The most current pictures I have of him is from almost a year ago.
http://www.darelldd.com/ev/drfrank.htm

[tideland_raj]

Originally posted by darelldd@Mar 7 2006, 02:37 AM
Great thinking! And that is indeed how our 1000+ public chargers in CA work now. You don't pay for ANY of them. Not yet, at least. Many businesses put them in (Costco) because they realize that the pennies that they pay for power translates into $100's of purchase dollars as the folks shop while charging. I go out of my way to patronize businesses that have chargers for this very reason. Even if I don't charge!

The point that electricity is everywhere doesn't mean that we won't eventually have a pay-as-you-charge situation. The point is that it is EASY to find power. Charging for it is a no-brainer once it catches on. My thinking is that there will be many, MANY places that will offer a free slow (110V) charge, and if you've on a cross-country trip, you can stop at a dedicated high-voltage fast charger, and pay for a 10-minute recharge to get you on the way again. But then you arrive at your hotel, and plug in overnight for free for a full tank the next morning.
Done!

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Thanx for the info, darelldd.

However, something doesn't add up. PHEV does not mean "free fuel". Even with low (8c/kwh) comparative costs, it would take quite a few dollars to fill up a Prius, wouldn't it?

Who's going to pay for all these costs?

Also, a bank of high-capacity chargers probably needs the requisite infrastructure that only places like gas stations could provide... it's great that CA is forward thinking, but AFAIK, these aren;t high-cap chargers, are they? And what about those places where the gov't doesn't "play dat game" (think deep south)?

Furthermore, what about the liability issue (this is most litigious society in the world, ya know)? Joe Schmoe with PHEV goes to motel, charges his battery only to find that it really just did 300 cycles worth of repetetive discharge and ruinied his battery... that needs to be accounted for, and if THAT becomes an issue, confidence in the technology will go right out the window.

All this points to the fact that businesses need an incentive to start the availability (other than potential increased sales from a lucrative demographic... like us)... and an industry/government push for standardization of would really help.

btw,
Any info on where I can find my local plug-in station, and how I could get my PHEV to work with it today (ie, are they 110V connectors)?

[Allannde]

Originally posted by tideland_raj@Mar 7 2006, 12:45 PM

btw,
Any info on where I can find my local plug-in station, and how I could get my PHEV to work with it today (ie, are they 110V connectors)?

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Is this thread about EVs or PHEVs? If it is PHEV don't you have a choice between gasoline or electric fillups? With electric fillups there could be 110v, 220v, fastcharge, slow charge, induction and who knows what other standards might be adopted. Whatever, it will work. We need to have the cars before we can charge them (except for Darell and he knows how).

[tripp]

Originally posted by tideland_raj@Mar 7 2006, 02:45 PM
However, something doesn't add up.  PHEV does not mean "free fuel".  Even with low (8c/kwh) comparative costs, it would take quite a few dollars to fill up a Prius, wouldn't it?

Raj, I think using CA electricity rates it comes out to $0.75/gal equivalent. I'm not sure if that's with peak, shoulder, or el cheapo rates. Folks in the PNW would pay nothing during off peak hours I would guess. I think Darell basically gets "free" gas because his solar array powers the house and car. The solar power is peak so he's able to sell it to Edison or PG&E (which ever one he's got) for top dollar and then charge the car during off hours when the electricity is cheaper.

[EricGo]

Notice how PHEV always brings up home solar arrays ? Like peanut butter & jelly.

I read yesterday that Austin (tx) Power utility will subsidize a solar array at $4/watt (!), to a max of ~ 13K. If the federal credit can also be taken, it is just about free. Wow.