Phev: Why Not Now?

[rpatterman]

What is the big stumbling block to getting PHEV today?
Both the RAV4EV and the GM EV-1 proved that a EV was able to do 75+mph with a 100+ mile range.
So combine that technology/battery pack and common hybrid technology.

Ok, so I am not an engineer, I'm sure it is more complicated than that.
But please don't tell me it is because some big American corporation (Chevron?) is sitting on the battery technology.
That would be so un-American to watch our economy nose dive while sitting on the solution.
There must be more to the story than that.

[ibcs]

Big Oil Greed - Toyota already paid $30 million for patent infringement. Big battery packs using NIMH are not available for that reason.

[Bob Allen]

Big Oil company profits or the survival of the planet's ecosystem?....sounds like a reasonable exchange........

[stevecaz]

Yep, I've been saying the same thing. It makes absolutely no sense that we can't have plug in hybrids now with ~40 mile+ electric only ranges, as the electric side is old tech.

It does make you think that people running companies like Chevron don't have any kids. I say Chevron under the widespread info that they are the ones who bought GM's patents regarding the EV-1 battery technology and are squashing it - but it applies to anyone else doing the same.

Would it be possible for an executive order or an act of congress to take a patent and make it null and void under extreme circumstances? After all, we are entering some serious issues with the energy situation foremost including national security by continuing to import middle east oil. That way the patents Chevron now owns become public domain.

[ceric]

stevecaz,
I think the answers to your questions can be found in this article.
EVWORLD FEATURE: RAV4 EV: Exceeding Expectations: Toyota | Electric Car | Plug-in Prius

[fotomickey]

Honestly I wanted the EV plug-in feature very much too.

But.... Toyota has been delaying the plug-in..... properly for their own hidden reason ? If there is nothing to worry.... I can't see why they don't take advantage to get further domination / lead in auto-industry.

My guess is the Electric-Motor or other Hybrid componet may get overheated for constant long distance travel in Electric mode or may shorten the life of Hybrid system in general.

When the Offical Plug-in introduce in the future... properly will likely to see Toyota shorter warranty coverage on Hyrbid parts (say 5Yrs or 50,000 miles)

[chogan2]

PHEVs wear out the batteries much faster than the typical EV, and only now are batteries being developed that can last the life of the car when used for PHEV. And at this point those new-generation batteries are expensive, at least to the retail consumer. Though they need not be once production volume grows.

Why does a PHEV wear out the batteries faster? Because the battery is small relative to expected travel distances. That means you expect to run the battery from fully charged to fully discharged every day. One full charge cycle per day. Current-gen batteries can't take that very long. Lifetimes are typically on the order of a few hundred full charge cycles.

For example, if you did the same thing to a RAV4 EV -- drove it from fully charged to discharged every day -- you'd kill the batteries in a few years. That would be 150 miles per day or so, or about 50,000 miles per year. At that rate, most of the battery packs would last two years, arguably most of them would not last three years, based on the tests done one of the California utilities on the earliest RAV4 EV models. (The endpoint is a little fuzzy, because they're batteries, and they just kind of fade out at some point, in terms of capacity.)

So, you could have an PHEV now, with the understanding that if you had NIMH batteries (like the Prius), you'd likely have to replace the batteries every 3 years or so. Costing, in the neighborhood of (say) $10,000 per replacement, if the Prius retail battery cost is any guide. Or you can have one now using lead-acid batteries, vastly cheaper but with more limited range. And those would typically be good for 2 (?) years or so of daily driving.

For the Calcars PHEV conversion, the lead-acid batteries didn't even last a year. They used 18 20ah lead-acid batteries, which I just costed from their source at $81 each, or (call it) $1500 plus probably some pretty stiff shipping. Weighing nearly 300 lbs (= 150 lbs of lead). So, a PHEV like the initial CalCars setup would require $1500 a year for battery replacement and would result in recycling 150 lbs of lead every year.

http://www.calcars.org/conversions-factsheet.pdf
http://www.electricrider.com/batteries/index.htm

Lithium ion batteries just keep getting better and better. Last-gen cells would typically be listed with lifetimes of around 300 - 600 charge cycles. That'd be two years in daily PHEV use. The newer ones are talking about 2000 - 3000 charge cycles and up, at which point you can plausibly say that most (or at least some) of them are going to last the life of the car. But those are just now coming onto the market and they are expensive.

Did the oil companies delay development/implementation of advanced battery tech in cars? You can certainly make some case for that. But developing a vehicle-lifetime PHEV battery was hard enough with or without their interference.

Good news is that battery tech is progressing rapidly, and 2010 looks like they year when everybody is on the bandwagon bring EVs and PHEVs to America. Can't happen too fast to suit me.

[miscrms]

Sorry, but I think Big Oil sitting on the patents has a lot to do with it. Why would you assume a for profit corporation that answers only to its shareholders would do the right thing if its not in their financial best interest?

Large capacity NimH batteries were the only commercially viable energy storage device available for the last 10-20 years. Lead acid works, but you just can't get the energy density or cycle life high enough to really be appealing. And I say that as someone who has done a lot of calculations regarding converting my car to electric. The key to the feasibility of the EV1 and RAV4 EV was the large Cobasys NimH batteries. Unfortunately the GM/Cobasys patent covered basically all use of large NimH batteries for vehicles. When GM sold that patent to Chevron, Toyota/Panasonic even got sued for using batteries 1/10 the size in the Prius. This is the main reason early Hybrid packs were often forced to literally use stacks of D sized batteries. The complexity of using this size battery for a much larger pack made it impractical for anything larger than a hybrid pack. Now that Li-ion is finally looking like its almost ready for vehicle use, Cobasys has popped up back on the scene offering large scale NimH for vehicles. Coincidently the only place they popped up is in GM Hybrids. Judging by the fact that GM just had to recall all their batteries I'm not sure much can be said for the quality of Cobasys' work under their current owners.

You are absolutely right. There is no reason we shouldn't all be driving electric cars by now, except that the automakers and oil companies decided it was not in their best interest. The EV1 and RAV4 EV showed the promise. Were they perfect? No. Is any revolutionary product in its first incarnation? No. The amount of work left to do turn these into widely marketable products was minimal.

Rob

[Fibb222]

Originally Posted by chogan2

So, you could have an PHEV now, with the understanding that if you had NIMH batteries (like the Prius), you'd likely have to replace the batteries every 3 years or so. Costing, in the neighborhood of (say) $10,000 per replacement, if the Prius retail battery cost is any guide.

Aren't Prius batteries listed at around $3000? I like the rest of your post.

[stevecaz]

I understand the technology development, and I understand that cheap oil simply didn't force a market for PHEV. There are many reason why good PHEV isn't a real reality, and many reasons why it shouldn't have been.

However, what has always existed is being held hostage to energy dependence and buying oil from enemies. This alone should have forced PHEV development and the only reason it didn't is administration after administration not pushing for energy independence. They were probably all scared that doing so would cause oil prices to skyrocket if the Middle East knew their largest customer was trying to stop buying the product. Now that China and India are taking up our reductions, they don't care as much.

Right now, the only people I would consider capable of pushing hard on this are McCain and Romney, as both consider our energy dependence one of the greatest threats to US security and economic prosperity there is. Hmmm, McCain/Romney '08, thats not bad. I guarantee that ticket is the fast track to electric cars.