Clean diesel vs Hybrid research paper complete with sources of info

[Dalton1]

Originally Posted by bighouse

I just love it when people can make all kinds of statements and then try to qualify it, as if it counts more somehow (or perhaps as an escape hatch?), if it's "..just my opinion"....we all know what they say about opinions...You can have an opinion that the world is flat, doesn't make your opinions count any more...what matters are REAL measurable facts and scientifically reproducible effects.

It's almost as bad as saying "Everyone knows..." or "Anyone with any common sense can see that...." or "...it's a known fact that...."

Im just trying to state my opinion without pressing it on to others that may disagree, you guys are very sensitive over here.

[Rokeby]

Ryan,

When you introduced your paper on the other forum you wrote, "This
is a paper I had to write in school on why to drive a diesel over a
hybrid..." It would then appear that to achieve that goal it wasn't
necessary to wholly objective. OK, so be it. You achieved your goal at
the time, a good grade.

Originally Posted by Viking Heavy Diesel

Hopefully this wont get blown out of proportion.

I note that it wasn't you who posted your paper here. It seems to me
that the posting takes your paper out of its original context. To that
end you have been ill-served by the poster. Now that the "Who let the
dogs out?" chaos of the last 24 hrs subsided, you paper is getting a
thorough -- but not necessarily friendly -- going over. You didn't write
it for this kind of scrutiny.

You'll have to look to those who were supposedly acting on your behalf
to address any unfairness.

Meanwhile, you've shown that you're no stranger to doing research. So
why not use either of our search functions to look into the many prior
threads where the essential diesel/hybrid issue has been thoroughly
discussed -- the high rise/lifted pickp vs. the Prius pseudo-issue is
emotionalism pure and simple and, IMHO, not worth pursuing.

[Zythryn]

Viking, I would be interested in any response you have to the points that have been raised.
Jay layed out some excellent counterpoints. To further the discussion, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on those.

[05_psd_driver]

Originally Posted by Rokeby

the high rise/lifted pickp vs. the Prius pseudo-issue is
emotionalism pure and simple and, IMHO, not worth pursuing.

Why is it emotionalism? I am not thrashing, just asking a question. If I off-road, and use my truck to tow heavy loads, then why is "emotionalism" that I drive a slightly lifted (only 3" lift) diesel 3/4 ton truck? That is factual need. I can't use a hybrid or small vehicle for what I do.

[cwerdna]

Originally Posted by Dalton1

Im not educated in environmental science

I am not either but to go further on F8L's points, let's ignore greenhouse gas emissions and CO2 for a minute which the EPA did not classify as a pollutant until recently and look at things are known pollutants and have no little or no relationship to global warming.

See http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf and page 6 for definitions. One can read up in more detail about many of these pollutants and their effects at http://www.epa.gov/air/airpollutants.html.

Then lookup the air pollution score (nothing to do w/greenhouse gases) for a few vehicles at Fuel Economy. Unfortunately, your Ford F-350 is not considered a "light duty" vehicle and I believe its GVWR is >8500 lbs. so ratings seem unavailable as it was exempt from fuel economy testing.

One can also go to Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and lookup vehicles like the 2010 Prius which has these states:
Emissions Certification Standard: LEV-II SULEV
Standards (grams per mile)
NOx 0.02
CO 1.0
NMOG 0.01
PM 0.01
Smog-forming Pollution (pounds per year) 0.99
Greenhouse Gases Emitted: (tons per year) 2.97 [this is a function of fuel consumption]

I'm unable to find a diesel F-350 (diesels are generally FAR worse than gasoline engines in terms of pollution), but here's the stats when looking up a Maine 2000 Ford F-350 w/the smallest gasoline engine. (This is when emissions standards were a lot more lax than now.)
Emissions Certification Standard: LEV
Standards (grams per mile)
NOx 0.9
CO 7.3
NMOG 0.28
PM 0.12
Smog-forming Pollution: (pounds per year) 39.02

Notice how many times each of these numbers is higher than the very low emission Prius?

[Viking Heavy Diesel]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Viking, I would be interested in any response you have to the points that have been raised.
Jay layed out some excellent counterpoints. To further the discussion, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on those.

Names Ryan BTW.

I know not what to say in response. I am the one person in here so far that truly does let everyone have their opinion with out bashing. I do agree with some and not with others. The point is that I am automatically the bad guy because its my paper in the first place. I am at a point where I will not be taken seriously.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by 05_psd_driver

Why is it emotionalism? I am not thrashing, just asking a question. If I off-road, and use my truck to tow heavy loads, then why is "emotionalism" that I drive a slightly lifted (only 3" lift) diesel 3/4 ton truck? That is factual need. I can't use a hybrid or small vehicle for what I do.

I don't think he meant so much that the choice of a hybrid or truck is an emotional one. I think he meant more that most of the time those discussions tend to lead to ad hominen attacks and purely emotionallly based arguments.

I, and most people on this board would agree with you. If you need to tow stuff, haul large loads or such you should buy a vehicle that can do that.
As I don't need to tow stuff, or haul anything that heavy or large, I drive a Prius, as it does everything I need.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Viking Heavy Diesel

Names Ryan BTW.

Pleasure to meet you Ryan

Originally Posted by Viking Heavy Diesel

I know not what to say in response. I am the one person in here so far that truly does let everyone have their opinion with out bashing. I do agree with some and not with others. The point is that I am automatically the bad guy because its my paper in the first place. I am at a point where I will not be taken seriously.

It is not your opinion that people have an issue with.
It is the supposed facts that you seem to base those opinions on. As many of the facts appear wrong, it may be that you would change your opinion if it is indeed based on the information in your article.
If your opinion is not based on the information in your article, that is fine too

[cwerdna]

Originally Posted by quadracer1014

When the Prius and similar hybrids hit the markets, there were facts missing about some not-so-earth-friendly problems these cars possess...
4). Specifically, these eco-unfriendly issues include the 30 pounds of nickel in the hybrid battery (Power, 2008) which comes from Canada but then “ships…to Wales for refining, then to China, where it’s manufactured into nickel foam, and then to…[the] battery plant in Japan. All told, the start-to-finish journey [for the nickel is] more than 10,000 miles” (Martin, 2007, ¶ 6-7). ...
...
Providentially for environmentally minded consumers with an eye on their bank account, there is a third choice beyond gasoline and hybrid cars. As stated earlier, the 2009 Green Car of the Year is the VW Jetta TDI, a car “achieves estimated highway fuel economy of 41 mpg” and “an affordable $21,990 price tag” (Green Car Journal Editors, 2008, ¶5). Obviously, to be the green winner, it also met “emissions certification for all 50 states without the use of special additives or extraordinary measures” (¶5).

You're making assumptions/implying that raw materials and parts in non-hybrids and/or North American made vehicles (destined for NA) don't go through long circuitous routes. See Too late. I got my deposit for 2010 Prius 8 month ago. and National Geographic Channel - Human Footprint - Our Driving Imprint. I also noticed you decided to include/quote the CNW junk science.

The term "clean diesel" and giving vehicles like "Green Car of the Year" is greenwashing at best. The author should've looked up the air pollution scores (and what the ratings and standards correspond to) and greenhouse gas emissions of the VW Jetta TDI vs. a Prius at places like Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and Fuel Economy to see that the Jetta TDI is NOT clean (from an air pollution point of view) compared to a vast majority of currently sold gasoline powered vehicles. All those gasoline powered vehicles (by extension/going by their logic) ought to be given the "clean gasoline" label or something to that effect.

Going by greenhouse gas emissions and crude oil consumption, one can see that that Side-by-Side Comparison, a 2010 VW Jetta TDI is estimated to emit 6.2 tons of greenhouse gases/year and consume 11.6 barrels of oil/year vs. 3.7 tons and 6.9 barrels respectively for a 2010 Prius.

Agreed about the earlier points made that it's baloney to compare a Touring model Prius to a Jetta TDI. One should be comparing base models. Currently per toyota.com and vw.com, the 2010 Prius starts at $22,400 and the Jetta TDI starts at $22,660.

Your HV battery warranty figures are also wrong. The HV battery in the Prius, Altima Hybrid, Insight, HCH and possibly more is warranted for 10 year/150K miles in CARB states such as California. (I believe that the CARB states are California, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Oregon, Rhode Island, Maine and New Jersey.)

[Viking Heavy Diesel]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Pleasure to meet you Ryan



It is not your opinion that people have an issue with.
It is the supposed facts that you seem to base those opinions on. As many of the facts appear wrong, it may be that you would change your opinion if it is indeed based on the information in your article.
If your opinion is not based on the information in your article, that is fine too

My personal opinions are not necessarily based fully on what I have written in the paper.

As anyone from my home forum will tell I happen to be very happy with my Hybrids for what my wife and I use them for. Travailing, errands and long trips, ECT.

But, and this is my opinion, the links and sources that I used are repuitable and do provide an unbiased opinion. Thats what I think. Now and I am not saying you, but many on here and this is undenyiable feel that because the links do not show their opinion then they are false and un just.