Drive them if you have them

[ShavenYak]

I'd have to concur that replying to something like that is pointless. I agree with him that American citizens have the legal and moral right to drive whatever they want. The best you could do is point out that along with that right comes the responsibility of dealing with the consequences - be they higher gas prices, more pollution, global warming, endless foreign wars, or whatever. The problem is, the sort of person who really wants to believe that a Hummer is a good vehicle choice isn't going to listen.

It is also true that the market will do a better job of moving people to efficient vehicles than any amount of legislation could. Especially when options like the Prius, the Civic Hybrid, or the Escape hybrid are available. The tax credit is nice, but when it goes away, the demand will drop, and the dealerships will probably start discounting some to keep selling the vehicles. In fact, if we want to see more adoption of efficient vehicles, encouraging the Hummer clan to keep driving 'em might be a good idea - it'll keep gas prices high, and make hybrids more attractive to buyers with a brain.

[hycamguy07]

Originally posted by ShavenYak@Mar 8 2006, 01:03 PM
I'd have to concur that replying to something like that is pointless. I agree with him that American citizens have the legal and moral right to drive whatever they want. The best you could do is point out that along with that right comes the responsibility of dealing with the consequences - be they higher gas prices, more pollution, global warming, endless foreign wars, or whatever. The problem is, the sort of person who really wants to believe that a Hummer is a good vehicle choice isn't going to listen.

It is also true that the market will do a better job of moving people to efficient vehicles than any amount of legislation could. Especially when options like the Prius, the Civic Hybrid, or the Escape hybrid are available. The tax credit is nice, but when it goes away, the demand will drop, and the dealerships will probably start discounting some to keep selling the vehicles. In fact, if we want to see more adoption of efficient vehicles, encouraging the Hummer clan to keep driving 'em might be a good idea - it'll keep gas prices high, and make hybrids more attractive to buyers with a brain.

[snapback]222234[/snapback]

I agree!

[Mojo40]

I am not smart enough to know if this is a realistic scenario, but with some fact checking and research by our bright PriusChat folks, maybe we could find that things aren't as simple as we presume. Consider this logic:

- For every gallon of gas consumed in the US, the overall price for crude is driven up some amount. In other words, the more gas we consume, the more expensive gas is (internationally)
- More expensive gas means it's less affordable including people in other countries.
- The less they can afford it, the less they use.
- US vehicles (yes, even Hummers) have among the most strict emissions reductions equipment on the planet.
- A majority of foreign vehicles have a lesser amount of emissions equipment.
- Thereform, it might be possible that the more gas we can burn in US vehicles, the less net amount of pollution will be generated.

I suspect that a fairly detailed analysis would be required to prove or disprove these assumptions. Of course, a fatal flaw in my assumptions or logic would shut it down right away.

[tripp]

Originally posted by ShavenYak@Mar 8 2006, 11:03 AM
I'd have to concur that replying to something like that is pointless. I agree with him that American citizens have the legal and moral right to drive whatever they want. The best you could do is point out that along with that right comes the responsibility of dealing with the consequences - be they higher gas prices, more pollution, global warming, endless foreign wars, or whatever. The problem is, the sort of person who really wants to believe that a Hummer is a good vehicle choice isn't going to listen.

It is also true that the market will do a better job of moving people to efficient vehicles than any amount of legislation could. Especially when options like the Prius, the Civic Hybrid, or the Escape hybrid are available. The tax credit is nice, but when it goes away, the demand will drop, and the dealerships will probably start discounting some to keep selling the vehicles. In fact, if we want to see more adoption of efficient vehicles, encouraging the Hummer clan to keep driving 'em might be a good idea - it'll keep gas prices high, and make hybrids more attractive to buyers with a brain.

[snapback]222234[/snapback]

The problem with the market is that it's very short sighted. It can't anticipate shortages well with out bedlam breaking out. The role of society and gov't is to forsee these sorts of issues (peak oil, for example) and to then take steps to mitigate the problem and develop alternatives. Once the alternatives have a toe hold you're right, the market can then drive things.

[VaPrius]

You could remind him that no one really cares what kind of car he drives. It should simply be less harmful to society. Its not about free will, its about protecting society better. If a vehicle uses too much fuel who cares? Except that using that fuel, at any level, supports the trade deficit, terrorism, global warming and hinders national security. The more fuel you use the more you degrade our society. SUVs have an additional associated risk to society. The larger SUVs put everyone around them at risk because of their weight. Any accident with a large SUV means the occupants of the other vehicle(s) are more likely to be injured or killed. Add to that the decreased visibility from many (or most) SUVs, especially the big ones, means an accident is more likely. That is why the insurance industry raised the rates of the other vehicles one the road -- because they are bearing additional risk on the road. From the SUVs. SUVs also expose their occupants to additional due to rollover. There have been numerous studies that have determined that SUVs are no safer than traditional vehicles because of rollover. In other words, for every injury you may avoid due to the extra metal around you, you may experience injury due to vehicle rollover. Since there is no change in overall safety, there is no tangible benefit to you or your family or society. Buying a big SUV is the moral equivalent of funding your drinking binge with your children's healthcare money or college education fund. But then the above is the logical view of the issued. All of that is over-ruled by the fact that SUVs are cool, got a big engine and really get my juices pumping. Besides, I'll be dead and gone when the real problems start (hopefully).

[DaveG]

Well, I agree with people's right to drive whatever sort of vehicle they choose to - in the same way that I wouldn't want to dictate to others what religion to practise, what food to eat, or what kind of house they should live in.

I'm not an environmental crusader, and my primary reasion for buying a Prius wasn't the fuel efficiency or because it's going to save me money or save the environment.

But if others choose to drive a fuel-hog as is their right, then I also don't want to hear any whining and griping from them about fuel costs. I also don't want to hear about people who are driving the posted speed limit while others choose to speed.

Dave

[Cameron]

I don’t agree with the premise of “us” and “them”. We are the government and we have the obligation to regulate for the betterment of society. A simple and logical start is to increase the gas tax. There, I said it. Tax our selves for the betterment of society. What’s so wrong with regulations and taxes? This notion of “our God given right” to pollute and wastefully consume our finite resources is a short sighted, selfish attitude that ignores my right to breath clean air and spend my taxes on more important thinks like feeding the poor and healing the sick, not fighting wars. The author is obviously trying to impress us with his cynical insight and frankly, I’ve heard it all before. We have the ability to be “the powers to be” if we fight hard enough for it. Environmentalists have been fighting for years and have taken a lot of criticism for their efforts. But when Jeb Bush buys a Ford hybrid, it’s cool. Environmentalist, conservationists and car enthusiasts, take heart. On occasion, even a “knuckle dragger” can be enlightened.

[calpal]

To my mind the oil people, and that includes President Bush's people, are playing a game called "optimisation of profit". It's really a simple game. You can find it in any calculus text book, I recommend the little book "How To Enjoy Calculus". Basically what it does is charge the price the brings in the most profit. In short, the higher the price, the less profit, IF PEOPLE CHANGE TO HYBRIDS. And they will if the gas price is high. This is exactly what the oil people don't want people to do. So to optimize profit they will only raise the price of gas before people decide to change. They raise the price high, but pull it down when they sense that is beginning to happen. So it goes on and on.
President Bush TALKS ABOUT CONSERVATION. This gives the impression that he is doing something about it, which of course he has no intention of doing. So people don't criticize, because they see his WORDS and not his ACTIONS. Consider what ACTIONS he can take if he wants to. How long did it take him after the 9-11 attack to gather together the large Bin Laden family living serenely in the U.S. and fly them out to Saudi Arabia? Why it took ONE DAY under his orders! They were all out of here in 9-12. He didn't even allow the FBI to question any of them, which is standard proceedure. So there you have it. The U.S. dependence on foreign oil will never stop if it's up to the oil people. And incidentally, that is why foreign governments will buy up our strategic industries, with our own money of course. Look up a situation called "The Strangler Fig". You can then see what is happening to us.

[DocVijay]

Originally posted by 2Hybrids@Mar 8 2006, 06:48 AM
"So to those of you who want those Hummers and big SUVs, I say go for it. As long as you can afford them and can afford the gas for them, you have the right to have what you want in this "free" society, even though there are those who believe we should all be "Stepford" citizens and drive the same cars, live in the same houses and think the same way that "they" do."

[snapback]222135[/snapback]

Amen.

MPG is only one aspect of a car. Other than that, an large SUV outperforms a Prius in almost everything else.

[Cameron]

Originally posted by DocVijay@Mar 11 2006, 03:48 PM
Amen.

MPG is only one aspect of a car. Other than that, an large SUV outperforms a Prius in almost everything else.

[snapback]223625[/snapback]

My SUV doesn't burn as clean. It doesn't have a back-up camera. It doesn't have navigation, side air-bags, or as high a safety rating. Suv's and hybrids serve their purposes but I don't think one necessarly out-performs the other.