Hybrid tussle: Prius vs Civic

brandon · 06-09-2006, 03:29 PM

Hybrid tussle: Prius vs Civic

Joshua Dowling, The Sydney Morning Herald
June 9, 2006

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleD...articleID=12404

Excerpts:

"The Toyota Prius automatically switches off its petrol engine as the car comes to rest and sits silently in traffic until the traffic light turns green, at which point it accelerates on its electric motor up to 40kmh before the petrol engine subtly kicks back into life. The genius of this system is that moving the car's mass from rest is what burns most fuel...

Essentially, the differences are: the Prius's propulsion is primarily from the electric motor, which is then assisted by the petrol engine as required. The Honda, meanwhile, primarily is driven by the petrol engine and assisted by the electric motor as required...

If your budget stretches only to $32,000, the Civic is a worthy proposition. However, if price is not a limiting factor, we'd go for the Prius. Toyota's hybrid system is more refined, more advanced, more user friendly and more fuel-efficient than the Civic's, which means the Prius is a better execution of its intended function."

larkinmj · 06-09-2006, 03:45 PM

I test drove both cars a couple of times before deciding- the HCH and the Prius were the only contenders. HSD is a more advance system than the Honda's IMA, but they are both excellent cars and you can't go wrong with Honda or Toyota. I would tell people drive both, and decide which one appeals to you more and which meets your needs better.

tumbleweed · 06-09-2006, 03:52 PM

Exchange rate $1.00 U.S. = $1.34 Australian.

Some of his facts are questionable and his explanations are over simplistic but his conclusions seem valid. Can you really drive a HCH on electric only?

SomervillePrius · 06-09-2006, 04:04 PM

and the priis main propulsion is not from battery... at least not for long... and the gas engine is still used to put that charge in... it is true though that the Prius can run longer with the engine off in stop/go traffic which is cool... if not an end in itself.

long term I think Toyotas strategy is the right one, as it should lead towards extended EV mode, plug-in and hopefully pure EV. Honda's path more goes down a path of light and lighter car which seems more like a dead end.

brandon · 06-09-2006, 04:15 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Jun 9 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]268798[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

and the priis main propulsion is not from battery... at least not for long... and the gas engine is still used to put that charge in...
[/b]

I think the author was trying to make the distinction between a full hybrid and an assist hybrid, although he wasn't too successful in doing so. john1701a's site has an excellent description of each:

Full Hybrid (details) (operation)

Assist Hybrid

Kudos again to john1701a for his work on these documents!

kram · 06-09-2006, 04:59 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Jun 9 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]268798[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

long term I think Toyotas strategy is the right one, as it should lead towards extended EV mode, plug-in and hopefully pure EV. Honda's path more goes down a path of light and lighter car which seems more like a dead end.
[/b]

There was an interesting article in Discover magazine a few months ago by a guy who is well known in the energy efficiency field. One of his pet peeves is that auto manufacturers appear to be missing the boat on one of the best ways to improve efficiency, namely lighten up the vehicles. Just think about where we are now. A typical car weighs about 3,000 lbs and typically hauls around a single occupant that weighs about 20 times less (ca 150 lbs). That means that the car spends about 90% of its fuel just to propel the car, not its passenger! Imagine the fuel improvements if a vehicle could be made 50% lighter. That would nearly double the MPGs! Couple that with a hybrid and the fuel savings are quite dramatic. This could even apply to SUVs -- use appropriately lightweight materials and even relatively big vehichles could be almost as fuel efficient as our smaller vehicles today with similar performance. The key to lightening up vehicles, he believes, is the development of composites such as carbon fiber, carbon nanotubes, etc. He just doesn't get why car manufacturers are not investing in these technologies.

It seems to me that improvements need to come from a number of areas such as batteries, ultracapacitors, PHEVs, ICEs, inverters, material weight, aerodynamic drag, alternative fuels, emission controls, etc. to give us the improved vehicles we need in the future.

gschoen · 06-09-2006, 05:35 PM

Looking at the cost of a carbon fiber bicycle, I have no doubts why they're not making cars out of the stuff. Maybe a Ferrari someday?

MikeSF · 06-09-2006, 05:40 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kram @ Jun 9 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]268852[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

There was an interesting article in Discover magazine a few months ago by a guy who is well known in the energy efficiency field. One of his pet peeves is that auto manufacturers appear to be missing the boat on one of the best ways to improve efficiency, namely lighten up the vehicles.

<snip>
[/b]

I don't think anyone is missing the point, its a well known fact (look at the motorcycle). But the issue happens to be with safety. Try arguing with a rabid SUV driver ESPECIALLY one that is a parent. One of the first things they fire off is safety since people tend to have the aura of invicinibility surrounding them in the name of a SUV. You can argue capacity of storage/people, you can argue fuel efficiency but one thing they usually will not budge on is their precious safety.

Little do they realize what they're really doing (whether they know it or not) is basically an arms escalation. smaller lighter cars while yes will have tremendous damage if you go head on is not the norm which people can't fathom, yet if you try to tell them two SUVs going head on at a similar speed they almost dismiss that fact. Then up comes the arguments of getting hit by everyone else with a SUV, or that infamous "drunk driver" that everyone seems to know someone who got hit by one or some accident they experienced where they hardly had a scratch but the toyota was crushed, etc and that's the end all be all of defenses for them and driving a huge hunk o' metal.

tumbleweed · 06-10-2006, 11:01 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Jun 9 2006, 02:40 PM) [snapback]268875[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Try arguing with a rabid SUV driver ESPECIALLY one that is a parent. One of the first things they fire off is safety since people tend to have the aura of invicinibility surrounding them in the name of a SUV. You can argue capacity of storage/people, you can argue fuel efficiency but one thing they usually will not budge on is their precious safety.
[/b]

I agree with what you say but their dedication to what they see as "safety" and protection of their offspring only goes as far as their wallet. If gasoline goes to $5 or $6 per gallon they will dump the SUVs and to hell with protecting the kids.

kram · 06-10-2006, 03:28 PM

I agree that safety is a concern and that many equate size and weight with safety. However, the modern car is both lighter and safer than a similar type of car was a half century ago. Going forward we should be able to engineer our vehicles to be both safer and lighter still. And if they can be big as well with similar fuel efficiency that will appeal to at least some people.

One article I read a while back suggested that most people who purchased SUVs did so mostly so that they could see the road better -- they were higher than most cars. Now with a large portion of people driving big vehicles this is no longer as big an advantage. Would much lighter car materials incite another round of even bigger vehicles? And what would happen if vehicles could be made 50% or even 75% lighter with good fuel efficiency? Would vehicles tend toward the size of step-vans? An interesting and perhaps scary thought.

06-09-2006, 03:29 PM	#1
brandon Proud member of the "Lunatic Fringe" Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Manhattan, KS Posts: 769 My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #6 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Hybrid tussle: Prius vs Civic Joshua Dowling, The Sydney Morning Herald June 9, 2006 http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleD...articleID=12404 Excerpts: "The Toyota Prius automatically switches off its petrol engine as the car comes to rest and sits silently in traffic until the traffic light turns green, at which point it accelerates on its electric motor up to 40kmh before the petrol engine subtly kicks back into life. The genius of this system is that moving the car's mass from rest is what burns most fuel... Essentially, the differences are: the Prius's propulsion is primarily from the electric motor, which is then assisted by the petrol engine as required. The Honda, meanwhile, primarily is driven by the petrol engine and assisted by the electric motor as required... If your budget stretches only to $32,000, the Civic is a worthy proposition. However, if price is not a limiting factor, we'd go for the Prius. Toyota's hybrid system is more refined, more advanced, more user friendly and more fuel-efficient than the Civic's, which means the Prius is a better execution of its intended function." __________________ Brandon 2005 Driftwood Pearl Prius, BC (Package #6), Delivered 10/21/2004

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06-09-2006, 03:45 PM	#2
larkinmj Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,996 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I test drove both cars a couple of times before deciding- the HCH and the Prius were the only contenders. HSD is a more advance system than the Honda's IMA, but they are both excellent cars and you can't go wrong with Honda or Toyota. I would tell people drive both, and decide which one appeals to you more and which meets your needs better.

06-09-2006, 03:52 PM	#3
tumbleweed Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Eastern Oregon Posts: 1,005 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Exchange rate $1.00 U.S. = $1.34 Australian. Some of his facts are questionable and his explanations are over simplistic but his conclusions seem valid. Can you really drive a HCH on electric only?

06-09-2006, 04:04 PM	#4
SomervillePrius Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 946 My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #9 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	and the priis main propulsion is not from battery... at least not for long... and the gas engine is still used to put that charge in... it is true though that the Prius can run longer with the engine off in stop/go traffic which is cool... if not an end in itself. long term I think Toyotas strategy is the right one, as it should lead towards extended EV mode, plug-in and hopefully pure EV. Honda's path more goes down a path of light and lighter car which seems more like a dead end.

06-09-2006, 05:35 PM	#7
gschoen Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago/Wrigleyville Posts: 339 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Looking at the cost of a carbon fiber bicycle, I have no doubts why they're not making cars out of the stuff. Maybe a Ferrari someday?

06-10-2006, 03:28 PM	#10
kram Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 33 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I agree that safety is a concern and that many equate size and weight with safety. However, the modern car is both lighter and safer than a similar type of car was a half century ago. Going forward we should be able to engineer our vehicles to be both safer and lighter still. And if they can be big as well with similar fuel efficiency that will appeal to at least some people. One article I read a while back suggested that most people who purchased SUVs did so mostly so that they could see the road better -- they were higher than most cars. Now with a large portion of people driving big vehicles this is no longer as big an advantage. Would much lighter car materials incite another round of even bigger vehicles? And what would happen if vehicles could be made 50% or even 75% lighter with good fuel efficiency? Would vehicles tend toward the size of step-vans? An interesting and perhaps scary thought.