Lithium-ion batteries: 15,000 deep cycles, 40 years life

clett · 10-27-2006, 06:15 AM

Cracking results:

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/g...amp;newsLang=en

Essayons · 10-27-2006, 08:02 AM

>Even after 15,000 cycles the cells still retained over 85% of their original charge capacity. This represents
>a significant improvement over conventional, commercially available rechargeable battery technologies
>such as lithium ion, nickel metal hydride and nickel cadmium.

That does sound good if not great. Now the big question how much will this cost per cell and when will it hit the market in reasonable numbers so that cars can be built for consumers.

eagle33199 · 10-27-2006, 09:20 AM

Doing a bit more research into their batteries, things look extremely promising. Not only do they allow extremely fast charge/discharge cycles and really long life, there is no risk of "thermal runaway", AKA exploding batteries, because the negative electrode doesn't react with the electrolyte (in lithium ion batteries, the two are separated by a thin barrier because they react with each other - at high temperatures, this barrier breaks down, cause fire and explosions)

It definitely sounds like the solution to the problem, the big question is, of course, cost...

A little movie they have of their batteries at work, inside a prototype vehicle: http://www.gravidfilms.com/deliverable/AN_Sac.mov

clett · 10-27-2006, 09:49 AM

The raw material costs for the Altair batteries (and A123 cells) should be less than standard lithium-ion, as they do not use any rare expensive elements. Cobalt (expensive, toxic and prone to thermal runaway) is replaced with phosphate (cheap, non-toxic, not prone to thermal runaway).

DaveinOlyWA · 10-27-2006, 11:44 AM

very cool. but already heard about this last fall... still no word on commercial applications?

dmckinstry · 10-27-2006, 12:13 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Oct 27 2006, 08:44 AM) [snapback]339304[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

very cool. but already heard about this last fall... still no word on commercial applications?
[/b]

Well, I first heard about it here on PC earlier this fall. I have a bookmark for Altairnano, and IIRC aside from the terrific charging rates, the energy storage per unit weight is less than for lithium-ion. I haven't found the link to confirm that now though.

Hey, maybe I should change my handle to DaveinCheneyWA.

Dave M.

DaveinOlyWA · 10-27-2006, 12:32 PM

i have a bookmark to the site as well and it was made Nov 2005

Daveincheneywa...

hmmm, not bad...

you heard about the state tourism department dropping the "Say WA" add slogan...

good move on their part i think.

pstockley · 10-27-2006, 01:04 PM

The problem with these and A123 batteries is they are optimised for power density not energy density. To get the same capacity as a traditional lithium ion battery would require a battery that is 2/3rds heavier So they are not great for pure electric vehicles or long range plug-in hybrids. They would probably be good in a traditional hybrid application and would allow more regenerative braking energy capture than nickle based batteries. I recently read a presentation from A123 that stated they didn't recommend using their cells for EV usage. However, they are looking to adapt the technology to produce higher energy density.

dmckinstry · 10-27-2006, 02:47 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Oct 27 2006, 09:32 AM) [snapback]339376[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

you heard about the state tourism department dropping the "Say WA" add slogan...

good move on their part i think.
[/b]

Nope. I hadn't.

Dave M.

**Tideland Prius** · 10-27-2006, 04:27 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Oct 27 2006, 09:32 AM) [snapback]339376[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

you heard about the state tourism department dropping the "Say WA" add slogan...

good move on their part i think.
[/b]

lol.. yeah, it caught me by surprise when I first saw that ad.

10-27-2006, 09:20 AM	#3
eagle33199 Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 4,283 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #7 Thanks: 35 Thanked 70 Times in 40 Posts Friends: 3	Doing a bit more research into their batteries, things look extremely promising. Not only do they allow extremely fast charge/discharge cycles and really long life, there is no risk of "thermal runaway", AKA exploding batteries, because the negative electrode doesn't react with the electrolyte (in lithium ion batteries, the two are separated by a thin barrier because they react with each other - at high temperatures, this barrier breaks down, cause fire and explosions) It definitely sounds like the solution to the problem, the big question is, of course, cost... A little movie they have of their batteries at work, inside a prototype vehicle: http://www.gravidfilms.com/deliverable/AN_Sac.mov __________________

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10-27-2006, 06:15 AM	#1
clett Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 503 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts Friends: 0	Cracking results: http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/g...amp;newsLang=en

10-27-2006, 08:02 AM	#2
Essayons Essayons Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Richmond. va Posts: 90 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	>Even after 15,000 cycles the cells still retained over 85% of their original charge capacity. This represents >a significant improvement over conventional, commercially available rechargeable battery technologies >such as lithium ion, nickel metal hydride and nickel cadmium. That does sound good if not great. Now the big question how much will this cost per cell and when will it hit the market in reasonable numbers so that cars can be built for consumers.

10-27-2006, 09:49 AM	#4
clett Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 503 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts Friends: 0	The raw material costs for the Altair batteries (and A123 cells) should be less than standard lithium-ion, as they do not use any rare expensive elements. Cobalt (expensive, toxic and prone to thermal runaway) is replaced with phosphate (cheap, non-toxic, not prone to thermal runaway).

10-27-2006, 11:44 AM	#5
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,377 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	very cool. but already heard about this last fall... still no word on commercial applications?

10-27-2006, 12:32 PM	#7
DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,377 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: IV Package: Solar Roof Thanks: 24 Thanked 121 Times in 103 Posts Friends: 10	i have a bookmark to the site as well and it was made Nov 2005 Daveincheneywa... hmmm, not bad... you heard about the state tourism department dropping the "Say WA" add slogan... good move on their part i think.

10-27-2006, 01:04 PM	#8
pstockley Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 16 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	The problem with these and A123 batteries is they are optimised for power density not energy density. To get the same capacity as a traditional lithium ion battery would require a battery that is 2/3rds heavier So they are not great for pure electric vehicles or long range plug-in hybrids. They would probably be good in a traditional hybrid application and would allow more regenerative braking energy capture than nickle based batteries. I recently read a presentation from A123 that stated they didn't recommend using their cells for EV usage. However, they are looking to adapt the technology to produce higher energy density.