Lithium Shortage

[clett]

Ditto Wayne!

[dmckinstry]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Feb 5 2007, 08:47 PM) [snapback]385904[/snapback]</div>

Great information. I didn't know Lithium is recyclable up to 90%.

Lithium is also used in applications other than PHEV such as power tools, laptop and other consumer electronic rechargeable and non-rechargeable batteries. The actual amount that can be used in PHEV and HEV will be less than the total available.

Dennis
[/b]

Unless I misread the article, 90% of the lithium they recycle is done by remote control. For all I know, 100% could be recycled. But whatever it is, that isn't made clear in the article.

Anyway, it's encouraging that it is being recycled.

Dave M.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mwbueno @ Feb 5 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]385897[/snapback]</div>

Wayne Brown --- http://privatenrg.com
[/b]

BTW, everyone should check out your web site.

That's where I first got a good description of how to block the grill.

Do you have any idea when the Windows version of your Hybrid Synergy Simulator will be available?
For that matter, how much will it cost? I don't have a Palm, but might get one if the Windows version is a long ways off.

Thanks for the great site.

Dave M.

[Orf]

Have no fear, ladies and gentlemen, Australia mines about 10% of the worlds lithium. We have reserves not touched as yet.
Also, Chile has another lithium source coming on line in 2008. Should be enought lithium to power your next Prius.

[burritos]

For those who are into stocks, ROC is a holding company that supposedly has sort of a monopoly on the Lithium mines in the USofA.

WFR has a similar situation for silicon(if you believe that solar is going to empty the silicon supplies).

[gx9901]

[quote=mwbueno;361408]

Originally Posted by sdgeiger @ Jan 24 2007, 08:42 AM) [snapback

380011[/snapback]</div>

Mr. Tahil’s basis for this article is built upon a statement in a paper he authored & remains at his company’s website:

http://www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/L...m_Problem_2.pdf

On page 12 of this report he states; “Existing LiIon/LiMP “Energy Batteries” for EVs require about 0.3kg of Lithium metal equivalent per kWh, in the form of Lithium Carbonate.” He then continues in this paper & his ‘Peak Lithium’ EV World article to state that it takes 1.4kg/kWh of Lithium Carbonate Li2CO3 to build each kilowatt hour of an EV battery.

This is only 0.409kg/kWh --- NOT 1.4kg/kWh, Mr. Tahil’s basis for this article.

0.409kg/kWh is extremely close to the figure (0.431) that the UN & the US-DOT & several Li-Ion battery companies tell us we need to use when determining the lithium content of a Li-ion battery. They are having us figure a little high for transportation safety reasons.

Go ahead and open the other data sheets for the other Saft Li-ion batteries & do the analysis on each battery displaying the Lithium contents. They all fall in at around 0.409kg to 0.426kg per kWh which is extremely close to the 0.431kg/kWh as stated in an above commentary.

This means that we can build in excess of 1.5 Billion PHEV20 (more than 2 X all the world’s current vehicles) & use only 5,799,918 tonnes of Li2CO3. The USGS tells us in a 2000 study that we have 12,000,000 tonnes of Li2CO3 …. HOWEVER, Lithium can be & is being recycled from Li-Ion batteries. See TOXCO]:

TOXCO Inc. - Safe Recycling Processes

As can be seen, lithium is quite recyclable so, in reality we won’t even begin to approach using up half the world’s reserves by the time we have gotten around to building 1.5 billion PHEV vehicles; if we EVER make that many. It is estimated that the whole world only has 0.6 billion vehicles today.

Wayne Brown --- Prius Palm Mileage Simulator

With all due respect, you have interpreted the report wrong. Your acceptable figure for Li content in cells is correct. But so is Mr. Tahil's. Please read the report again. He puts the figure at 0.3 kg/kwh. He then goes to stat 1.4 kg/kwh.

The key here is that first Tahil states 0.3 kg in Li elemental form. Then he states 1.4 kg in lithium carbonate. You wrongly assumed 1.4 kg/kwh as the figure for elemental Li.

Furthermore, 12 MT reserves of carbonate does NOT exist. Geological surveys established the elemental ore-CONTAINING reserves. In reality, as the study states, Li is in the 3 forms. The carbonate form is estimated to be 6 MT. This is the only form usable in batteries. This is once again in the paper by Tahil.

Past that, you cannot assume that Li usage will not increase in other industries as well. We will recycle but there is no telling what demand increases are in the future outside of the auto industry.

I've taken the time to revive this thread due to the large amount of faulty information as a result of the internet. No hard feelings.

[FL_Prius_Driver]

One of the jobs of the USGS is to keep tabs on all the worlds minerals. I have been using the following web site for years to figure out the status of lithium:

USGS Minerals Information: Lithium

Key information is:

"The identified lithium resources total 760,000 tons in the United States and more than 13 million tons in other countries."

If you do a little detective work on the report causing the controversy, you will notice that the major reserves of Lithium are discounted because they are "uneconomical" to recover. This is the most crucial assumption and it is not justified by any math, just a passing statement.


PS (I find I am helping recycle posts after responding)

[daniel]

Originally Posted by nerfer

... They are definitely not going to put the same batteries as in today's laptops straight into vehicles. ...

Though this is an old thread, I just thought I'd note that putting laptop batteries into cars is exactly what Tesla Motors is going to do with the soon-to-be-mass-produced Roadster, following AC Propulsion's innovation with the tzero. Tesla uses a liquid cooling system for its laptop batteries, which were chosen because they are readily available at relatively low cost and in large quantities.

But with luck, ultra-capacitors will become available before Australia and Chile exhaust their supplies of lithium.

[bbald123]

Originally Posted by sdgeiger

<snip>

Whatever Happen to Peak Oil?
Oil prices appear to be in free fall. Prices have dropped for the first time in a year-and-a-half below $50 a barrel.

<snip>

You don't have to read any more than the quoted statement to know this is garbage.

According to: Oil firm as US reports stocks rose, as expected UPDATE

oil is at $87 a barrel.

[donee]

Hi gx9901,

I doubt highly that the carbonate form is the only form of Lithium ore that can be used for batteries.

There are these people named "chemists" who spend years in college to figure out how to take things like sulfates, and oxides and convert them to things like carbonates, and elemental metals. Indeed, aluminum ore is primarily an oxide, and metalic aluminum is not available in nature as a pure metal. That has not stopped people from making products from aluminum metal. Copper is primarily available today as a sulfate/sulfite ore these days (used to be a mined as a naturally occuring metal).

[gx9901]

Carbonate extraction from Spodumene
Process for the purification of lithium carbonate - US Patent 6048507
The lithium carbonate is then recovered by filtration, and the liquor is recycled back to the extraction process. The purity of the material, once dried, is approximately 99%, but is insufficient for battery grade lithium metal production or for pharmaceutical grade lithium carbonate. In particular, calcium levels are too high.


Spodumene
The production of lithium carbonate from spodumene is much more energy intensive than the production from lithium chloride-enriched brines. Spodumene concentrate must be heated to about 1100°C to make it more reactive. Then it is finely ground, mixed with hot sulphuric acid and heated to 250°C to form lithium sulphate. Water is added to dissolve the lithium sulphate. Finally, lithium sulphate is treated with soda ash to yield lithium carbonate.

Lithium chloride-enriched brines that contain somewhere around 300 parts per million (ppm) only need to be pumped from the ground and deposited in evaporation ponds where the natural evaporation process increases the concentration to 6000 ppm in a period of 1-2 years. The liquid is then pumped to a processing plant where it is reacted with soda ash, precipitating lithium carbonate.



You disagree and to an extent you are correct. But there is something called "economics". I will reiterate that carbonate is a must in Li-ion batteries. Go ahead and look at the electrochemistry of a battery on Wiki. Spodumene deposits must be converted to carbonate adding complexity and time to production.

Additionally, Toyota is already selling the Prius as a loss, from the figures provided, replacing 11% of global car production with Li powered EVs/hybrids in 2004 would have required DOUBLE the production capacity that year; assuming production could have been doubled the cost of carbonate would have skyrocketed nonetheless. Thus, affecting users of carbonate in other industries as well in mental health prescriptions.

Add to that, the first excerpt shows that refining of the carbonate is required. Further adding to the cost.

Of note is the fact that no environmental study has been made of mining Li on a scale to supply the replacements for our current fleet of cars.

The goal of the paper was merely an application of the old adage: Do not put all of your eggs in one basket. Had the US listened to Carter's 1970s address with greater enthusiasm, we would not be so dependent upon imported oil. Some of the wild-eyed hybrid/EV enthusiasts insists these are the answer. Now we trade oil dependency for Li dependency.

Judging from the responses to this thread, I very much doubt that most people on these forums took the report seriously. Download it, read and research. Then come back to the report and you would realize it is not screaming Chicken Little but instead advocating diversification of technological investment.

Furthermore, pinning our collective hope on emergent technology to solve our oil dependency is fallacious. I have a few friends in Hong Kong who are millionaires; nothing enormous but considerably richer than me and the majority. They don't bother using their cars on a daily basis, the city's mass transit system is ridiculously efficient.

Hong Kong has a population of 7 million with 500 000 registered vehicles. Vancouver with a population of 2.3 million has 1 300 000 registered vehicles.

What's needed is the political will to raise mileage standards in addition to public transit oriented urban planning. Past that, a collective realization that cars are not a birthright.