Honda breaks ranks, supports higher CAFE standards

Arroyo · 02-03-2007, 11:16 PM

When it comes to the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards, automotive manufacturers have traditionally lobbied against making the standards tougher. The industry usually avoids the argument heard from the flat-earthers - i.e., "higher gas mileage standards will make our vehicles more unsafe." The argument is more along the lines of being a burden on the industry or (the not invalid argument) that the market should decide.

This week, the Honda Motor Company, Ltd broke ranks with the pack, becoming the first automotive manufacturer to publicly support higher CAFE standards. On January 30th, it said the U.S. government needs to do a better job of getting more fuel efficient vehicles on the road, including boosting gasoline mileage requirements and offering incentives so consumers want to buy cars and trucks that burn less fuel.

"We believe it is time for the federal government to take action to improve vehicle economy," John German, manager of American Honda Motor Company's environmental and energy analysis division, said in written testimony to a Senate Energy Committee hearing on fuel efficiency in the U.S. transportation sector.

- Back Seat Driver (Full article)

MSantos · 02-04-2007, 10:26 AM

Hummm... is that a true measure of the greenest auto company??

Nah, it could not be. Honda?

Oh, wait a second... they do have the best fleet Fuel Economy average... I guess they really are the greenest.

donee · 02-04-2007, 12:31 PM

Hi All,

Don't you just love the way these media guys slide those back_sswards "big lie" characterisations into their writing. Its a real art. Specifically the comment:

" The industry usually avoids the argument heard from the flat-earthers - i.e., "higher gas mileage standards will make our vehicles more unsafe." "

When in reality its those who oppose improving technology I.E. CAFE performance, are by definition "flat-earthers". The traditional automotive media is full of this spin crap! This guy knows what teet he is sucking off. But does he know who the actual customer is!?

Earthling · 02-05-2007, 07:58 AM

Honda does not have the best fleet fuel economy by accident. Honda has always been environmentally responsible.

The Civic is named for their CVCC engine, which was a sensation when it came out, because it was so much cleaner than the engines of that time:

http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1...xt06/index.html

While all the US automakers whined about upcoming emissions standards, proclaiming that they just couldn't meet those standards, Honda worked hard and found a way to meet and exceed the standards.

Why wouldn't Honda maintain its long term philosophy, and encourage fuel economy in the form of CAFE standards?

Harry

More:

the company began establishing a low emission engine technology with the belief that “dealing with the Clean Air Act wasn’t a company issue but a duty to which the industry at large was obliged; a pledge to keep as a responsible member of society.”

from http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1...xt08/index.html

Harry

Chuck. · 02-05-2007, 08:54 AM

Honda is also absent on the plantiffs on the Calif law to limit CO2.

Soichiro Honda was slow to get his company in the SUV and truck market. When the Acura MDX was being designed, the chief engineer (originially from GM) tried to tell him Americans did not care if it got worse gas milage than the BMW M5. Mr. Honda smiled and acknowledged that, then insisted the Acura would be more fuel efficient (and it was done).

**Tideland Prius** · 02-05-2007, 12:45 PM

But the RDX doesn't get better mileage than a Murano even though it's nearly a litre smaller and has 2 fewer cylinders (with turbo).

Anyway, yeah I've always considered Honda as an engine company, as a company known for mobility.

The HCH-I is using direct injection in the 1.3 litre engine along with the lean burn. I'm surprised the Prius hasn't used direct injection yet.

SoopahMan · 02-06-2007, 07:12 AM

You never know - Toyota might use that trick to attain their 75mpg claim for the 2008 Prius. We'll see, I'm looking forward to reading all about it in September and October.

Bravo to Honda for backing better fuel standards! Admittedly, Toyota and Honda backing higher CAFE standards is a bit of a bully move on the rest of the industry - basically asking the US government to outlaw sales of most of the fleets of the rest of the automakers. But, frankly, it's a kick in the butt those other automakers deserve. Even if it puts the entire American auto business out of business, they had it coming.

It won't - Congress will move slowly on this even with Global Warming a big issue - but I wouldn't be shocked to see CAFE move as high as 32mpg, which would decimate the legal sales of most US automakers fleets (because selling more than a few hundred of anything but their most fuel-efficient vehicles would put them below the legal CAFE limit). Ford would need to sell 100 Fusions to sell one truck.

I do wonder what will happen with the changes to EPA standards and CAFE. Since CAFE is based on EPA ratings, and the EPA methods are officially going to change in a way that reduces all numbers by 10-15%, even if CAFE stands still, big automakers besides Toyota and Honda are already up against the wall if they want to sell any trucks or SUVs.

JSH · 02-06-2007, 09:40 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SoopahMan @ Feb 6 2007, 07:12 AM) [snapback]385966[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

I do wonder what will happen with the changes to EPA standards and CAFE. Since CAFE is based on EPA ratings, and the EPA methods are officially going to change in a way that reduces all numbers by 10-15%, even if CAFE stands still, big automakers besides Toyota and Honda are already up against the wall if they want to sell any trucks or SUVs.
[/b]

The changes in EPA standards only will effect the window sticker shown to the car buyer. The old EPA standard will still be used to calculate CAFE. The EPA has an interesting report about the new calculation methods on their website. The report is EPA420-D-06-002 "Fuel Economy Labeling of Motor Vehicles: Revision to Improve
Calculation of Fuel Economy Estimates". I will warn you, it is 178 pages long but if you want to know how the new standard works, this is the document.

SoopahMan · 02-06-2007, 04:13 PM

Ugh, that's ridiculous. One set of numbers for the label, another set of numbers for the car dealers to abide by... abuse by lobbyists at its most glaring.

sl7vk · 02-06-2007, 10:00 PM

Bravo Honda.

Now, just give me something comparable to the Prius... and I'll bite.

02-03-2007, 11:16 PM	#1
Arroyo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 181 My Car: 2004 Prius Model: Package: #7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts Friends: 0	When it comes to the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards, automotive manufacturers have traditionally lobbied against making the standards tougher. The industry usually avoids the argument heard from the flat-earthers - i.e., "higher gas mileage standards will make our vehicles more unsafe." The argument is more along the lines of being a burden on the industry or (the not invalid argument) that the market should decide. This week, the Honda Motor Company, Ltd broke ranks with the pack, becoming the first automotive manufacturer to publicly support higher CAFE standards. On January 30th, it said the U.S. government needs to do a better job of getting more fuel efficient vehicles on the road, including boosting gasoline mileage requirements and offering incentives so consumers want to buy cars and trucks that burn less fuel. "We believe it is time for the federal government to take action to improve vehicle economy," John German, manager of American Honda Motor Company's environmental and energy analysis division, said in written testimony to a Senate Energy Committee hearing on fuel efficiency in the U.S. transportation sector. - Back Seat Driver (Full article) __________________ Project Prius: Breaking The Sound Barrier

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02-04-2007, 10:26 AM	#2
MSantos EcoAccelerometry Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Canada, Winnipeg Posts: 428 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: Base Thanks: 25 Thanked 23 Times in 19 Posts Friends: 3	Hummm... is that a true measure of the greenest auto company?? Nah, it could not be. Honda? Oh, wait a second... they do have the best fleet Fuel Economy average... I guess they really are the greenest.

02-04-2007, 12:31 PM	#3
donee Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 2,244 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 2 Thanked 54 Times in 47 Posts Friends: 0	Hi All, Don't you just love the way these media guys slide those back_sswards "big lie" characterisations into their writing. Its a real art. Specifically the comment: " The industry usually avoids the argument heard from the flat-earthers - i.e., "higher gas mileage standards will make our vehicles more unsafe." " When in reality its those who oppose improving technology I.E. CAFE performance, are by definition "flat-earthers". The traditional automotive media is full of this spin crap! This guy knows what teet he is sucking off. But does he know who the actual customer is!?

02-05-2007, 07:58 AM	#4
Earthling Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Somewhere, NY Posts: 437 My Car: 2007 Prius Model: Package: #2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Friends: 0	Honda does not have the best fleet fuel economy by accident. Honda has always been environmentally responsible. The Civic is named for their CVCC engine, which was a sensation when it came out, because it was so much cleaner than the engines of that time: http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1...xt06/index.html While all the US automakers whined about upcoming emissions standards, proclaiming that they just couldn't meet those standards, Honda worked hard and found a way to meet and exceed the standards. Why wouldn't Honda maintain its long term philosophy, and encourage fuel economy in the form of CAFE standards? Harry More: the company began establishing a low emission engine technology with the belief that “dealing with the Clean Air Act wasn’t a company issue but a duty to which the industry at large was obliged; a pledge to keep as a responsible member of society.” from http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1...xt08/index.html Harry

02-05-2007, 08:54 AM	#5
Chuck. Honda Enzyte Driver Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lewisville, TX (Dallas area) Posts: 1,096 My Car: Other Hybrid Model: Package: N/A Thanks: 12 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts Friends: 2	Honda is also absent on the plantiffs on the Calif law to limit CO2. Soichiro Honda was slow to get his company in the SUV and truck market. When the Acura MDX was being designed, the chief engineer (originially from GM) tried to tell him Americans did not care if it got worse gas milage than the BMW M5. Mr. Honda smiled and acknowledged that, then insisted the Acura would be more fuel efficient (and it was done).

02-05-2007, 12:45 PM	#6
Tideland Prius Moderator of the North Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 19,633 My Car: 2010 Prius Model: N/A Package: Technology Package (Canada) Thanks: 229 Thanked 345 Times in 244 Posts Friends: 23	But the RDX doesn't get better mileage than a Murano even though it's nearly a litre smaller and has 2 fewer cylinders (with turbo). Anyway, yeah I've always considered Honda as an engine company, as a company known for mobility. The HCH-I is using direct injection in the 1.3 litre engine along with the lean burn. I'm surprised the Prius hasn't used direct injection yet.

02-06-2007, 07:12 AM	#7
SoopahMan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 105 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	You never know - Toyota might use that trick to attain their 75mpg claim for the 2008 Prius. We'll see, I'm looking forward to reading all about it in September and October. Bravo to Honda for backing better fuel standards! Admittedly, Toyota and Honda backing higher CAFE standards is a bit of a bully move on the rest of the industry - basically asking the US government to outlaw sales of most of the fleets of the rest of the automakers. But, frankly, it's a kick in the butt those other automakers deserve. Even if it puts the entire American auto business out of business, they had it coming. It won't - Congress will move slowly on this even with Global Warming a big issue - but I wouldn't be shocked to see CAFE move as high as 32mpg, which would decimate the legal sales of most US automakers fleets (because selling more than a few hundred of anything but their most fuel-efficient vehicles would put them below the legal CAFE limit). Ford would need to sell 100 Fusions to sell one truck. I do wonder what will happen with the changes to EPA standards and CAFE. Since CAFE is based on EPA ratings, and the EPA methods are officially going to change in a way that reduces all numbers by 10-15%, even if CAFE stands still, big automakers besides Toyota and Honda are already up against the wall if they want to sell any trucks or SUVs.

02-06-2007, 04:13 PM	#9
SoopahMan Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 105 My Car: Model: Package: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Friends: 0	Ugh, that's ridiculous. One set of numbers for the label, another set of numbers for the car dealers to abide by... abuse by lobbyists at its most glaring.

02-06-2007, 10:00 PM	#10
sl7vk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 503 My Car: 2006 Prius Model: Package: #3 Thanks: 2 Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts Friends: 1	Bravo Honda. Now, just give me something comparable to the Prius... and I'll bite.