Hybrids In, Bio-Fuels Out

[Gary0878]

Feb 10, 4:42 AM EST

Hybrids In, Bi-Fuels Out in Arizona

By PAUL DAVENPORT
Associated Press Writer
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PHOENIX (AP) -- Three models of small hybrid cars will be permitted to use car pool lanes on area freeways under an experiment that also will ban some alternative-fuel vehicles that can now use the special lanes.

The federally authorized pilot project was announced Friday by Gov. Janet Napolitano's office. It will permit the Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius to use the 73 miles of high-occupancy vehicle lanes if owners get required new plates and special permits.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070210/ap_on_...carpool_lanes_6

[Bill Merchant]

Thanks for the info, Gary, but you have no right to copy it and place it here. The copyright is owned by AP.

Please edit the post to give only a couple of paragraphs (fair use) and a link to the full story. I'm sure you don't want to get the AP trying to shut down PriusChat for stealing copyrighted material.

[Godiva]

Here's the link: Hybrids in, Biofuels out in AZ carpool lanes.

And what Bill said.

[Gary0878]

Sorry, I did not know all the rules.

It is fixed.

I don't post often and you can see why.

Gary

[Bill Merchant]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gary0878 @ Feb 10 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]388193[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, I did not know all the rules.

It is fixed.

I don't post often and you can see why.

Gary[/b]

I wasn't trying to jump on you, Gary. Thanks for fixing your first post. We all just want to see PC stay out of any trouble.

And keep posting!

[DaveinOlyWA]

WTG Arizona!

[GripperDon]

I think a bio fueled Hybrid or a diesel fuels one or a bio diesel fuel one will be so good they will shut down the freeways and give them a police escort.

I always thought that you could quote the person directly like I live in AZ and read the release handout personally so i'll just quote her directly and tough on you AP whatever that stands for anyway I think it's, Always Political.

[Saguaro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Feb 13 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]389611[/snapback]</div>

WTG Arizona!
[/b]

WTG Governor Napolitano! It would not have happened without her leadership.

[donee]

Hi All,

I think there is a real problem with Ethanol now. Is it a biofuel, or a biofuel delivery system for Petroleum/coal/Natural Gas ? If the fossil fuel input to make Ethanol is greater than 80 % of the Ethanol content its really not a biofuel, even if its made with a biological process.

Until Ethanol produces more than twice the roadable energy as the fossil fuel energy input, Ethanol is JUST a biofuel delievery system for Petroleum and/or Coal.

And legislation should treat it as such. Specifically the CAFE benefits should be based on the fossil fuel consumption required to make the fuel energy delivered by Ethanol. Right now, I believe that is between 80 and 120 percent. For example, an SUV running on Ethanol should be given a 80 to 120 percent CAFE level. Call this the Ethanol Factor. Yea, if it takes 120 percent of Fossil Fuel energy to make a unit of Ethanol vehicle movement energy, then the CAFE value for the vehicle should be EPA mileage / 1.2 , which is worse than the EPA mileage on gas! Still, I do not know what the actual value is, and that is the subject of some research. So, the SUV manufacter would loose CAFE credit if Ethanol does indeed require 1.2 times the fossil fuel input the energy it delivers. Which is as it should be, not how it is now.

Ethanol from Corn requires planting and harvesting of Corn with petroleum (at this time, biodiesel in the future) powered machines. Then the refining of the Corn into Ethanol requires heat for the fermenters, which can come from a variety of sources, most of which right now are fossil fuel.

The Department of Agriculture or other such government organisation would have to make the national average determination of the Ethanol Factor (or Biobutanol Factor, or Biodiesel Factor ). If Farmers really want to compete, and have the governement exclude more efficient sources of bio-fuels (as is effectively happening now), then they should be made to do it in a way that has an accounted for benefit. Without an Ethanol Factor (say determined bi-anually) to grade their efforts, we the tax payer are just throwing money down a boon doggle hole. This is kinda a non-payment subsidy. We the public are still paying the money, just without delivering it to the government, but to the farmer directly at the behest of governement regulation. In reality this a still the same ol subsidy, just called by another name in my opinion.

The Bio-fuel factor would then be a metric that the market would use to select a bio-fuel that is the most effective.

[jayman]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Feb 18 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]392436[/snapback]</div>

Without an Ethanol Factor (say determined bi-anually) to grade their efforts, we the tax payer are just throwing money down a boon doggle hole. This is kinda a non-payment subsidy. We the public are still paying the money, just without delivering it to the government, but to the farmer directly at the behest of governement regulation. In reality this a still the same ol subsidy, just called by another name in my opinion.[/b]

Yes, whether ethanol or bio-diesel, to at least a certain amount there is "smoke and mirrors." There has yet to be a good "accounting" of the feedstock energy sources, net CO2, and even USDA has a few conflicting studies on whether ethanol is net energy positive, neutral, or negative.

Recently a troll commented on how "clean" the new diesels are, even claiming the new diesels were "cleaner" than petrol motors.

Whether run on low sulfur diesel or some mass produced rapeseed with a methyl ether ketone co-solvent, the cleanest passenger car diesel motor in Europe still puts out SIX TIMES the PM that Tier 2 allows. NOx is 3-7 times higher, depending on whether the test is "sea level" or "altitude"

Future Euro diesel emissions, for 2010-2015, still allow 3 times the PM that current Tier 2 Bin 5 allows.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/t...-to-reform.html

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_...el-dilemma.html

Which is why if you live in California you can't buy a new VW tdi. The EPA rates a 2006 VW Golf tdi in Bin 10, the absolute worst. Bin 5 is "average." The 2006 Prius is rated Bin 3.