Prius vs. HUMMER: Exploding the Myth

[fshagan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(liquidsoapdispenser @ Apr 18 2007, 08:08 AM) [snapback]425312[/snapback]</div>

I constantly fret that anything I do to cut energy use (and cut associated pollutants) is more then canceled out by my neighbors driving huge SUVs to work every day. It's so easy to think, "hey, I'm just one person, it really doesn't matter what I do." Well, I don't want to think that way, and I have to do what seems right, even if I'm just a drop in the bucket.

Along those lines, how can anyone fault California for trying to do the right thing. Even if the effect could be overshadowed by others, it doesn't make it any less the right thing to do. Hopefully in California's effort to curb emissions, new technologies will be discovered, and an example will be set that others may follow.
[/b]

Voluntary efforts are fine, but judging by the outcry here when gas goes up to $3.75 a gallon, even Prius drivers don't want to pay the cost of those kinds of reductions.

California will reduce CO2 on the backs of the poor, who are disproportionately affected by slower economic growth, and can't afford the higher cost for basic necessities. If Californians were serious about it, they would pass a law that no one can have a house larger than 1,000 square feet per person without the excess square footage being offset by energy savings. The exodus from Hollywood would be dramatic.

But we aren't really serious about reducing CO2. We complain when gas goes up, and all of us here, who own Prius', are relatively rich compared to the poor.

[patsparks]

I don't believe my owning a Prius (which I bought second hand) has an adverse affect on the poor. The real poor don't own cars so petrol prices have a minimal impact, social justice policies of government and business have the biggest impact, like minimum wages, access to free health care and social security. The biggest problem for the poor is the obscene wealth at the top is at the expence generally of the poor. Rich people are happy to send employment to poor countries even though wages are pitiful and even though it takes work away from your country because it allows them to buy a bigger thirstier car or a bigger house that needs more energy to heat. All this even though the car and house they had were more than adequate.

[craigcush]

Here is the latest on the subject. Spread it around.

http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/27/priu...-basis-in-fact/

Or link to the main page;

http://climateprogress.org/

[efusco]

TOYOTA OFFICIALLY RESPONDS to CNW report...
http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/sep...mmervprius.html

HEARD THE ONE ABOUT THE HUMMER?
Some readers of Hybrid Synergy View say they've heard about a report that claims a Hummer H3 sport utility vehicle uses less energy per mile driven than a Toyota Prius sedan. Not surprisingly, Prius fans who take pride in their cars' energy efficiency are confused by this claim.


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The report, published earlier this year by CNW Marketing Research, Inc., is titled "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal." It is said to measure in dollars and cents all the energy used in creating, building, operating and disposing of each vehicle over its entire lifetime. The report says a Prius costs $3.25 per mile to operate, versus just $1.95 a mile for the Hummer H3.

In May, a response from the Pacific Institute said of the CNW report, "The little supporting evidence that it has released suggests that the contentions in the report are, at best, unproven, and are likely wrong: the result of faulty analysis, untenable assumptions, manipulation and misuse of facts and data, numerical mischaracterization, and inadequate review."

Because of its remarkable claims, however, the CNW report has been circulated widely and quoted in the media, continuing to spur questions from consumers.

Vehicle life and lifetime miles
For example, the Prius is assumed in this report to be driven only about 9200 miles a year, and to have a service life of less than 12 years and 109,000 miles. CNW assumes the average Hummer H3 will travel 207,000 miles over a lifetime of 15-plus years. The H1, incidentally, is assumed to have a lifetime of nearly 35 years, with 379,000 total miles.

According to data from the New Vehicle Consumer Study by Maritz Research, Prius owners plan to drive their vehicles an average of over 14,600 miles per year. And if Prius hybrids last only the 12 years assumed by CNW Marketing Research, Inc. -- also an unsupportable assumption, given the substantially greater service lives of other Toyota vehicles -- they would still rack up more than 175,000 miles in their lifetime.

Production costs versus operating costs
Using another puzzling assumption, the CNW report seems to assign the majority of a vehicle's lifetime energy input to its design, development and production. We turn again to the Pacific Institute, which cites five independent studies showing that the operation of a vehicle is responsible for at least 73 percent and as much as 90 percent of its lifetime energy cost.

One of these studies, from the Argonne National Laboratory, is quoted as concluding that "around 74% of all hybrid and internal combustion vehicle energy use comes from the operation of the vehicle."

Pacific Institute quotes the MIT study "On the Road in 2020" as saying that a comprehensive life-cycle energy analysis found that "80% to 90% of all energy was used in the operation stage, 7% to 12% in the materials production stage, and the remainder in vehicle assembly, distribution, and disposal."

So, with lifetime energy cost divided by lifetime miles, as in the CNW report, Prius's per-mile energy input would be substantially better than is shown in that report, and better than that of a Hummer.

Our method of measurement
Toyota, meanwhile, employs its own standard to measure each new vehicle's environmental "footprint." Toyota's Eco-VAS, or Eco-Vehicle Assessment System, is a tool for predicting and reducing the environmental impact of its vehicles. It also measures the energy required in a vehicle's production and operating stages, but goes beyond analysis to provide a framework for design changes that improve environmental performance.

Toyota's engineers use Eco-VAS all through the process of design and development and leading to production -- measuring a vehicle according to six critical standards: fuel efficiency, exhaust emissions, external vehicle noise, lifetime environmental impact, recyclability and the reduction of substances of concern.

In design and production, these standards lead to the replacement of hexavalent chromium, lead and other substances of concern, lower the use of in-plant energy, and employ some plastic parts made from agricultural products rather than petrochemicals.

In the operating stage of a vehicle's life, Eco-VAS improves fuel efficiency, produces fewer greenhouse gases and smog components, and cuts the impact of batteries, tires, oil and parts used in maintenance.

And, in the recycling and disposal phase, Eco-VAS standards improve the collection and reuse of recyclable materials, provide for easier dismantling and prevent the production of harmful waste.

The bottom line
The people at Toyota are no strangers to environmental awareness and to the positive changes that benefit both our consumers and the world they inhabit. With Eco-VAS, we're taking giant steps to do even better.

And Prius owners, knowing the facts about the gentle environmental impact of their cars, continue to be proud of the choice they've made.



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Editor's note: Readers interested in CNW's full 458-page report may find it at:
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveener...F%20VERSION.pdf
The Pacific Institute response can be seen at:
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf
The Summer 2006 Hybrid Synergy View article on Eco-VAS is available at: http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyvi...mer/ecovas.html

[F8L]

I wasn't sure if we added RMI's (Rocky Mountain Institute) study of the Dust to Dust assumptions or not.

The .pdf is located below.

Checking Dust to Dust's Assumptions about the Prius and the Hummer:


RMI is a think tank for for environmental health and economic prosperity so be aware of that while reading the article. I still like them and their ideas.

[dspur59]

I couldnt care LESS about the "green-ness" of my prius.

The smog laws have gotten to a point of diminishing returns, like MOST so-called environment friendly legislation.

Tree-huggers and the sierra club have pushed all kinds of regulations on the forest service. Those same regulations resulted in the burning of 60% of all forests in the western United States back about 4 years ago. It isnt about the environment anymore, if it ever was. Its all about keeping attornies in jobs in litigation with the government. And well meaning, emotional people worried about their environment. Active volcanos pollute far more than the sum total of mans pollution from the last 2,000 years. Environmentalists cant stop volcanos, cant stop the weather: nor could they possibly pollute the planet in excess of the planets capacity to absorb. Detonated nuclear warheads have only a short term environmental effect on the environment. People still live in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and are healthy. Man lacks the capacity to seriously damage God's creation (oops..not supposed to say "God" in front of environmentalists..it offends their Stalinist predisposition).

The place where I live has doubled in population. The air, due to needed smog laws, is cleaner than it probably has been in 150 years, before the automobile and the factory. But the forest fires kept it hazy most of the time, before the industrialization of the area.

I loved my diesel excursion. I had to sell it because the fuel cost exceeded my ability to pay.

Now if I can just figure out how to get this hybrid-barely-bigger-than-a-skateboard to belch black smoke...

[F8L]

Originally Posted by dspur59

I couldnt care LESS about the "green-ness" of my prius.

The smog laws have gotten to a point of diminishing returns, like MOST so-called environment friendly legislation.

Tree-huggers and the sierra club have pushed all kinds of regulations on the forest service. Those same regulations resulted in the burning of 60% of all forests in the western United States back about 4 years ago. It isnt about the environment anymore, if it ever was. Its all about keeping attornies in jobs in litigation with the government. And well meaning, emotional people worried about their environment. Active volcanos pollute far more than the sum total of mans pollution from the last 2,000 years. Environmentalists cant stop volcanos, cant stop the weather: nor could they possibly pollute the planet in excess of the planets capacity to absorb. Detonated nuclear warheads have only a short term environmental effect on the environment. People still live in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and are healthy. Man lacks the capacity to seriously damage God's creation (oops..not supposed to say "God" in front of environmentalists..it offends their Stalinist predisposition).

The place where I live has doubled in population. The air, due to needed smog laws, is cleaner than it probably has been in 150 years, before the automobile and the factory. But the forest fires kept it hazy most of the time, before the industrialization of the area.

I loved my diesel excursion. I had to sell it because the fuel cost exceeded my ability to pay.

Now if I can just figure out how to get this hybrid-barely-bigger-than-a-skateboard to belch black smoke...

The ignorance of this post is astounding. You would benefit from a few natural resource and ecology classes. My last course (Natural Resource Conservation) was taught by a botany professor (ex- U.S. Forest Service employee). You are completely and utterly wrong about the environment and anthropogenic emissions. If you are going to attack with such ferocity at least have your facts straight or you end up looking like a moron to those of us who do know the facts.

[nerfer]

Originally Posted by F8L

The ignorance of this post is astounding. You would benefit from a few natural resource and ecology classes. My last course (Natural Resource Conservation) was taught by a botany professor (ex- U.S. Forest Service employee). You are completely and utterly wrong about the environment and anthropogenic emissions. If you are going to attack with such ferocity at least have your facts straight or you end up looking like a moron to those of us who do know the facts.

I agree. This guy is a total idiot, and I don't say that lightly. We could come back with facts (line-by-line would be easy), but it appears he doesn't use facts, so it would likely be a waste of time. First post also, dspur59 might not even read the responses or is deliberately looking for a flame war.

[railroadjames]

After 4 yrs and 70 K miles I 've come to several conclusions. First of all, the Prius far exceeded all my expectations. While on vacation in Vancouver, B.C. I noticed several taxi cabs (yellow Priuses). I was amazed by the owner/operaters and their stories and testimonies as to the total satisfaction they found in this hybrid car. Several of the drivers spoke of going over 150,000 miles and told how these amazing cars turned around their financial status. Total reliability and almost a constant conversation piece with the passengers. It sounded like free advertising every time a fare got in. I know this to be true because I praised the car countless times with "others" running out and buying one too.
As to the "Hummer" I'd like to point out a few things. The Hummer is huge. It never fits in a normal parking place without crowding the vehicles on either side and the rear sticks way out. It has one of the worst mpg ratings ( they're exempt from EPA ratings hmmmm) Check their Consumer's Report rating. Then check the Prius. Oh, then there's the ride of a Hummer. Ever hear of a Mac truck? By the way. Ever try getting in & out of a Hummer? Lastly I point out my favorite true encounter with a Hummer last spring when reg. gas was $3.39. I pulled into a gas-station behind a woman filling her husband's Hummer. She looked over at my Prius and asked if it was a hybrid? I responded yes and then heard the common misinformed question. "Where do you plug it in?" Then I heard the click of my nozzle telling me my fill-up was complete. Less than $25.00. As I left I couldn't help but notice her pump was about to close in on $100.00 and still pumping. Life is full of hybrid wisdoms. Oh,check the resale values of both vehicles. Which one wins that contest? Nuff said.

[a priori]

Originally Posted by railroadjames

After 4 yrs and 70 K miles I 've come to several conclusions. First of all, the Prius far exceeded all my expectations.

Welcome to PriusChat -- and thanks for posting your good news and great observations.

You may want to take a look at a couple of recent threads about Prius taxis!

BTW, please add info in your profile about the model year and package of your Prius.