Electric cars that pay

[LewLasher]

So, you're thinking of buying one of those gas-electric hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius or Honda Insight. They're trendy, conserve fuel, and reduce pollution. But to really go "green," some entrepreneurs and academics say, you should try a Volkswagen Jetta.

Not just any Jetta. A dark blue one that a California electric-car company has modified so that it not only uses electricity but generates it for other purposes. So, once it's parked, you plug it in and sell excess electricity to a utility.


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[daniel]

There's still nothing on AC Propulsion's web site later than April, 2003!

[Wolfman]

I'll have to see it before I'll believe it. The power's gotta come from somewhere, and propelling a vehicle is a net loss situation.

[bruceha_2000]

And there would be little risk of leaving the office to discover a car with a dead battery. That's because V2G cars would have on-board controls to prevent their batteries from being drawn below minimum travel needs set by the owner - say, a 50-mile trip.

So they drain up to 50% of your battery, whereupon you drive somewhere to plug in to the grid to recharge the battery, right?
I guess on the surface, if you could guarantee that all those cars pushing power during peak time, would not then cause a peak demand by recharging , it could 'help'. :-) Sounds more like taking change out of one pocket, dropping some of it on the way to your other pocket, then claiming a profit.

[daniel]

The idea is that all those car batteries would help even the demand load on the electric grid, just like the battery/motor in the Prius evens the demand load that the car places on the ICE.

You charge up your car at night from the grid, when demand is low and the system has excess generating capability.

In the daytime, if you are not driving, your car is still connected to the grid, and at times of peak demand, when the generating capacity of the system is stressed, they draw back some of that energy from your battery (crediting you for the energy).

The idea does not generate any new net energy, and in fact involves some losses related to efficiency. But by leveling out the peaks, it allows the system to operate with less total generating capacity, and therefore saves on the capital cost of building more generators.

I have no idea if the math really works. I.e., whether equiping enough cars with this would provide enough storage capacity to make a real difference. But they are not violating any laws of physics.

[hdrygas]

OK I don't get it. What is generating this electricity that you are selling? Where is the power coming from? Did I miss something. Does this use gasoline to generate electricity while it is parked? Is this a good idea?

[daniel]

No. The cars do not generate any electricity. They are charged from the grid, and able to feed back to the grid. All they do for the national energy system is help shave the peaks, so the system can function with lower total generating capacity and therefore lower capital cost.

In some areas there may be a fairly low base generating capacity, such as hydro, supplemented by a higher-cost back-up for peaks, such as natural gas. In this case, shaving the peaks would save on natural gas.

But the cars are nothing but electric cars that can double as energy storage for the grid.

Shaving energy-demand peaks is a useful and important part of an overall energy policy. However, I don't know whether this scheme would really provide enough storage to make a significant difference. And of course, any car actually being driven during peak energy-demand times would be unavailable for peak-shaving.

[LeVautRien]

So what if you suddenly have to make a fairly length trip? You're outta luck because you need to make it during the peak grid time, when the car's somewhat drained? It seems like a good idea in theory, but bad in execution.

[DaveinOlyWA]

"There's enough wind power in three Plains states to provide power to the entire country - but there's no way today to store that power," Dr. Ross says.

rather optimistic statement i think.

instead of using cars, why not use automated rail cars?? they can charge a boxcar load of batteries in Kansas, then roll into LA discharge and go back.

even better put them on maglev system. because of the reduced resistance of superconductors, distances that power can be transmitted without appreciable losses increases 75,000%. then we wouldnt have to worry about transporting a few kW in a slow moving car. we can use wire like we do now.

obviously, there are more than a few barriers to this fantasy.

[Sun__Tzu]

I read in the WSJ on Friday that German engineers are discovering new problems to wind power: namely, that inconsistent wind leads to dangerous fluctuations on the power grid. Apparently, the equipment on the grid doesn't enjoy having power levels rise and fall with inconsistent wind speeds.

It may be true that 3 states has enough total wind to generate enough power for the whole country, but I doubt the wind is spread out over a convenient period of time, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Tornado and thunderstorm-level winds aren't useful for wind power (and can damage wind turbines).