Riding shotgun with the new green machines

[zenMachine]

Mr. Angemeer says his Prius, which replaced a sport utility vehicle as his company car eight months ago, got 212 miles per gallon after it was retrofitted with a $12,000 lithium battery that charges in part by plug.

He said he has not tested the fuel efficiency since the solar panels were installed two months ago at a cost of $7,000.

The modifications boost the total cost of the car to about $50,000 and dwarf the off-the-assembly-line-advertised gas mileage of 55 miles per gallon.

"The car is sort of taking over my life," Mr. Angemeer said. "I'm always thinking of ways to improve it."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/lifeMain/

[Wiyosaya]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Jun 20 2007, 12:36 PM) [snapback]465266[/snapback]</div>

Mr. Angemeer says his Prius, which replaced a sport utility vehicle as his company car eight months ago, got 212 miles per gallon after it was retrofitted with a $12,000 lithium battery that charges in part by plug.

He said he has not tested the fuel efficiency since the solar panels were installed two months ago at a cost of $7,000.

The modifications boost the total cost of the car to about $50,000 and dwarf the off-the-assembly-line-advertised gas mileage of 55 miles per gallon.

"The car is sort of taking over my life," Mr. Angemeer said. "I'm always thinking of ways to improve it."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/lifeMain/
[/b]

Here's proof it can be done today with today's battery technology. Now lets have a resounding round of "it can't be done" or "battery technology is not up to the task" or "its too expensive" from all automakers.

[nytimez]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Jun 20 2007, 12:56 PM) [snapback]465289[/snapback]</div>

Here's proof it can be done today with today's battery technology. Now lets have a resounding round of "it can't be done" or "battery technology is not up to the task" or "its too expensive" from all automakers.
[/b]

Well, in all fairness, it DID cost the guy $50K.

[hill]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nytimez @ Jun 20 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]465493[/snapback]</div>

Well, in all fairness, it DID cost the guy $50K.
[/b]

And your point?
After all, it costs OVER $50K for a USED Rav4-ev ... and they have to pull over once they go about 120 miles in range. The PV roof that the guy installed will eventually pay back the initial cost, too. Sure, new technology is pricy, but unless there are at least a few folks that take the plunge, the price won't come down via mass quantity.

[nytimez]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jun 20 2007, 09:08 PM) [snapback]465521[/snapback]</div>

And your point?
After all, it costs OVER $50K for a USED Rav4-ev ... and they have to pull over once they go about 120 miles in range. The PV roof that the guy installed will eventually pay back the initial cost, too. Sure, new technology is pricy, but unless there are at least a few folks that take the plunge, the price won't come down via mass quantity.
[/b]

The point is $50K is $50K. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first Prius wasn't $50K. It's a very small market - people willing to pay $50K for an electric car. I'm not saying it can't be done or shouldn't be done. But there's not a tremendous amount of incentive for an automaker to create and distribute a $50K electric car. When an electric car is next tried for mass production, I am willing to bet the initial price point won't be anywhere near $50K and it won't be aimed at a few folks willing to take the plunge.

[MikeSF]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jun 20 2007, 06:08 PM) [snapback]465521[/snapback]</div>

The PV roof that the guy installed will eventually pay back the initial cost, too.
[/b]

I bet it won't, the cost per power gained on such a small photovoltaic device will never pay itself back over it's lifetime.

I'm curious what $7k buys you, especially since you remove the need for a power inverter, your car batteries do run on DC after all. Just a quick google shows that a 56" x 26" solar panel puts out about 130 watts, and costs only $610, how many of those can you honestly put on a RAV4? Most likely he paid a serious premium for the sleek design to match with the roof. Not to mention this is a peak power output, designed when they are on a roof angled toward the sun, not perfectly flat on a roof.




Also quick look at a mis-reported(??) statement?

hacker nicknamed "the Shogun" reportedly drove 1,600 kilometres on a 13-gallon, or 49-litre, tank of gas. That's about 715 miles per gallon[/b]

1,600 kilometers is about 1000 miles, if you do that on 13 gallons, that's about 76 miles per gallon, not 715.

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nytimez @ Jun 20 2007, 09:10 PM) [snapback]465542[/snapback]</div>

The point is $50K is $50K. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first Prius wasn't $50K. It's a very small market - people willing to pay $50K for an electric car. I'm not saying it can't be done or shouldn't be done. But there's not a tremendous amount of incentive for an automaker to create and distribute a $50K electric car. When an electric car is next tried for mass production, I am willing to bet the initial price point won't be anywhere near $50K and it won't be aimed at a few folks willing to take the plunge.
[/b]

The only reason it was 50k to begin with is due to the fact it is basically one of a kind. Anything produced 'one off' is going to cost much more than it would if it were in production. The automakers, when and if they build them, will easily cut that cost in half.

This is the point...

[hill]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Jun 21 2007, 11:21 AM) [snapback]465737[/snapback]</div>

I bet it won't, the cost per power gained on such a small photovoltaic device will never pay itself back over it's lifetime.

I'm curious what $7k buys you, especially since you remove the need for a power inverter, your car batteries do run on DC after all. Just a quick google shows that a 56" x 26" solar panel puts out about 130 watts, and costs only $610, how many of those can you honestly put on a RAV4? Most likely he paid a serious premium for the sleek design to match with the roof. Not to mention this is a peak power output, designed when they are on a roof angled toward the sun, not perfectly flat on a roof.
Also quick look at a mis-reported(??) statement?
1,600 kilometers is about 1000 miles, if you do that on 13 gallons, that's about 76 miles per gallon, not 715.
[/b]

Bad bet. Hubie Ponce, a guy I work with here at Disney, put of a 3K watt system up on his roof all by himself, 6 years ago, and it already paid for itself. It runs his whole house electric. His home in Santa Ana has 1,850' sq. Now if you have to pay a contractor? Basicly they say as the size of the PV system increases, so will your savings ... after all, larger systems drive larger homes and their equally larger electric utility bill. You take out a 2nd mortgage, and the cost of the mortgage, monthly, is about the same as your electric bill. That's WITH a contractor. Do it your self & savings of course are greater.

By the way, you don't put the panel on the Rav4-ev. You do your whole house. There are folks here on PC who are already doing it. The juice for a PHEV is mearly colateral. We've had PV contractor quotes (just last year) for our 2,800' sq. home in CA for $15,000.

BTW, do you really know any one that stuffs the theoretical 13 gal in the car

[echase]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steve-o @ Jun 21 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]465755[/snapback]</div>

The only reason it was 50k to begin with is due to the fact it is basically one of a kind. Anything produced 'one off' is going to cost much more than it would if it were in production. The automakers, when and if they build them, will easily cut that cost in half.

This is the point...
[/b]

Well, the Prius has a base price over 20K, so I doubt we would cut it in half, but perhaps the cost of the upgrades would come down 50%. So... this might be mass-producable at around $35 retail. I think Toyota is concerned about liability, in light of the flaming LiON laptop batteries and all.

[MikeSF]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jun 21 2007, 11:32 AM) [snapback]465882[/snapback]</div>

Bad bet. Hubie Ponce, a guy I work with here at Disney, put of a 3K watt system up on his roof all by himself, 6 years ago, and it already paid for itself. It runs his whole house electric.


...By the way, you don't put the panel on the Rav4-ev. You do your whole house.
[/b]

There's a huge difference between putting it on your house, I agree the wise thing to do, and putting it on the roof of your car, which is what this guy did (look at the pictures in the article). You couldn't put 3kW of panels on your car's roof if you had 100% efficient panels.. well you might get close. 7k for a few hundred watts of power isn't going to make a hill of beans as far as saving money, in fact the article mentions he hasn't tested how his efficiency improved with the addition of the panels, my guess is that it hasn't improved much at all.