Toyota Reveals Concerns on Prius Conversions

[priusFTW]

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...ws/message/780

Click the link above to read the full document along with other observations. Here is the Memo copied from that link:


FULL TEXT OF TOYOTA'S MEMO "PHEV CONVERSIONS"
Charles E. Ing, Director, Government Affairs Toyota Motor North America

Both with respect to safety and emissions, PHEV converters should
comply with existing standards governing second stage manufacturers,
if applicable, and, NHTSA and EPA should be required to establish new
regulations for certification of conversions of used vehicles. In
other words, the product liability and warranty risk, should be
assumed by the converter. The government should assure that there be
no degradation in emissions and vehicle safety before it provides
taxpayer incentives.

Following are the reasons why:

Based on Argonne National Lab testing of two converted Prius hybrids
to PHEVs -- the Hymotion and Energy CS PHEV conversions -- both
generate significantly higher NOx and total HC emissions when
compared to a stock Prius. This is particularly evident after cold
start, when Prius emissions are virtually zero. (See the attached
chart.) This raises the question of whether the government should be
paying people to make their cars dirtier?

The primary problem with plug-in hybrid electric conversions (PHEV
conversions) is that the modifications to the factory-built vehicle
take the vehicle out of compliance with the Federal Motor Vehicle
Safety Standards ("FMVSS"). After-market converters do not perform
crash testing to certify that the converted vehicle meets or exceeds
FMVSS. The risk is highest in terms of rear-end collisions because
these vehicles are generally converted by adding a substantial number
of batteries in the trunk or cargo section of the vehicle.

General potential risks are as follows:

Increased Risk of Fire:
Toyota equips its hybrid vehicles with nickel metal hydride
batteries. PHEV conversion vehicles are typically equipped with
either lithium-ion batteries or lead-acid batteries. Lithium-ion
batteries carry a higher risk of fire. Toyota recently decided
against using lithium-ion batteries in the next generation of hybrid
vehicles due to concerns that these batteries can overheat and catch
fire. Similarly, lead-acid batteries contain sulfuric acid which can
escape the battery and can burn occupants in an accident.

Other Increased Risk of Injury in an Accident:
Because the converted vehicles are not tested for compliance with
FMVSS 301, which deals with fuel tank integrity and related
crashworthiness issues, there is a risk that the aftermarket
batteries can compromise the fuel system and/or crashworthiness. This
can happen due to the composition of the batteries as well as the
added weight and placement of the batteries in the trunk/cargo area.
The mass of these batteries can often extend into the zone of the
rear bumper, increasing safety concerns. These added batteries can
become projectiles in an accident.

Adverse Effect on Rear Suspension:
Because these batteries often weigh hundreds of pounds in total and
add weight to the rear of the vehicle, the rear suspension and
handling and stability of the vehicle is compromised, increasing the
risk of accident.

Compromised PowerTrain/Voiding of Warranty:
In order to add the extra battery capacity, converters have to hack
into and modify the software in the hybrid's Engine Control Module.
Such modification may damage the battery pack and engine; it also
voids the express warranty provided by Toyota at the point of sale.

Increased Risk of Electrical Shock:
PHEV conversions are generally used with a home outlet. However, we
are aware of no testing (such as compliance with UL standards) done
to ensure compatibility between these batteries and home electrical
wiring. This poses a risk of electrical shock and even fire.

Removal of Spare Tire:
Many converters use the entirety of the trunk and cargo area and
either remove the spare tire completely or make it inaccessible. This
poses a risk in the event of a flat tire in an emergency situation.

Noncompliance With EPA Regulations:
Toyota's hybrid vehicles are compliant with EPA regulations on
emissions. To the extent hybrid plug-in converters interfere with the
ECM and the vehicle's emissions, the vehicle may then not be in
compliance with EPA regulations.

[dipper]

Other than the risk of not meeting EPA, the rest are just BS for why PHEV conversion should not happen.

Shocks/Springs can be changed.
Crash worthiness, who cares?
Fire?
Electrical Shock? EE are the ones hacking, they know as much if not more about electricity.
Flat Tire?

Merlin.... flame away.... I am on your side with this Toyota memo

[Swanny1172]

What else would you expect Toyota to say?

Also, let's look at who said it.

Charles E. Ing, Director, Government Affairs Toyota Motor North America

Director of Government Affairs is typically slang for lobbyist. Again, this is all spin and no substance.

[Pinto Girl]

I'm not surprised that they'd take this stance...but I do wonder about the Prius' structure; that it may not have that much extra beef built into it in the first place, and that adding a 'dense' few hundred pounds worth of batteries back there might possibly compromise some aspects of crashworthiness.

I have nothing whatsoever substantive to base that on, however.

[etyler88]

All corporations produce high levels of mumbo jumbo. Toyota is a corporation and was therefore expected to produce some mumbo jumbo. I am 100% certain that nobody from Toyota hybrid R&D had any input in that memo. It means nothing.

[efusco]

This isn't a big deal. It's CYA stuff saying "we wanna make it clear we're not the ones encouraging this stuff." Just in case there is a bad outcome...odds are there will be at some point, but I'm sure this will, in no way, discourage anyone from doing a conversion...most if not all of them already are aware of the potential risks.

One point that really suggests this is just CYA is the spare battery point...I mean, come on, that is just plain lame.

The only point that may be somewhat legitimate is the NOx issue...though I fail to understand how it could produce more NOx emissions if the ICE and emissions control systems aren't altered.....just cooling of the CATs due to the extended EV distances??

[priussoris]

It goes back to PRODUCT LIABILITY ISSUES WHO'S GOING TO PAY AND WHEN

[Tech_Guy]

Toyota's position seems rather logical. However, my gut feeling tells me that the true reason for their statement is because of legal liability. If there were an accident with human injury with a converted hybrid, then Toyota would be sued along with the supplier of the PHEV conversion kit. When you file a law suit, you always include any party that has very deep pockets (Toyota in this case)...

Keith

[acdii]

That is a high priority CYA! When you add batteries to the existing pack, you increase the amount of amperage available. DC kills faster than AC can. You can get hit with 220V of AC and not get hurt too bad, but 220V of DC, that crap can kill you, especially if there is a lot of amperage behind it. That may be their biggest concern since the addition of batteries would be in the passenger compartment, not buried underneath it. Some might say, but it is in the back, but this car does not have a trunk, so technically it is part of the passenger compartment. In the event of a crash, these batteries are exposed, and since Toyota doesn't have any control of how the mod was done, the modifier may have bypassed the safety cutoff so these buggers could be hot after the crash, becoming a hazard to rescue workers and trapped passengers. The statement regarding plugging it in basically says, if you plug in a Prius that wasn't designed by us to be plugged in and your house burns down, don't blame us.

The only point that may be somewhat legitimate is the NOx issue...though I fail to understand how it could produce more NOx emissions if the ICE and emissions control systems aren't altered.....just cooling of the CATs due to the extended EV distances??[/b]

yes that is exactly what can cause high Nox, cold cats do not do what they are designed to do and you have higher emissions when they are not functioning at 100%. If the engine controls see a warm engine, they can lean burn, but if the cat is cold at the same time, it does not produce enough heat to catalyze the NoX to the proper levels. Lean burning produces more Nox, which the cats convert into other gases.

[ZA_Andy]

It seems very clear to me that the entire purpose of this document is to create a liability question such that if Toyota are faced with a suit, they have this to fall back on as the foundations of argument on which to defend themselves. Rightly in my view since, for example, it remains very unclear what safety implications there are in adding notable rigid weight to the rear crumple zone where it was such was not designed to be.

It's Toyota saying 'we know this is being done, and you can do it as much as you want, but let it be known that the car wasn't designed for it' - that's the point, that the car wasn't designed for it, thus whoever undertakes this work can only do so in accepting liability for the consequence. They dress it up with all the other stuff to look like it's a reasonably credible anti-modification analysis, but they don't really care much about the details, just their backsides.