2009 Prius BIGGER and FASTER (Yeah better mileage too)

[a priori]

As I noted earlier, I'm with John on this one, and I think Toyota's plan is likely to develop Prius as its own brand -- kind of like Scion. There would be a variety of hybrids available under the Prius brand, from a "mini" to a minivan, with the focus on a large sedan and a smaller sedan (like today's Gen II).

More to the current point, I like efusco's post on the reasons for Toyota to develop the car we're discussing now. I liked the Gen I Prius, and I would have purchased, but I was able to buy a used car that got me more creature comforts with decent mileage at a MUCH lower price. When Gen II arrived, the mileage was up, the creature comforts were way up, and the technology really was proven. Aren't we now looking at a way for Toyota to expand this concept and grab the biggest share of the market? They don't want anyone to compare the Prius to the Corolla or Civic, but to the Camry, Accord and better, and find that it is economically the right choice.

[BIGGDOGG]

I don't mind the power my 2nd gen prius gives (except when I need to slam on the gas to get out of the way of some speeding truck driver) thats would be the only time I would prefer a little larger engine.
The only other Hybrid I would be interested in purchasing would be the Toyota Hybrid truck when/if they ever come out with it.

[Tempus]

I understand the point everyone is making, about bigger and faster being better. To some the Prius is perceived as under-sized and under-powered. The logical extension of that thought was what resulted in 400HP ExpiTahLades.

The fact is that the average 4 cylinder car today rivals the performace levels of 60's muscle cars. We all laughed here when Click and Clack ragged on the Big3 about why anyone would need a 400 HP car.

Sales of Automobiles just exceeded sales of Trucks for the first time in a decade or more. Manufacturers are shedding capacity and some dealers won't even take SUVs in trade.

The question is, is that trend confined just to "Trucks", or is it symptomatic of a growing realization in the public that size and speed aren't the only measures of a vehicle.

Worth noting is that in the first quarter sales of Camry Hybrids were more than twice sales of V6 Camrys.

If fuel prices continue to rise apace, I predict you'll see the public's perception of vehicles change right along with it. The current Prius has perfectly reasonable performance and actually is pretty quick off the line (if the tires don't break loose ) which is where people most often want a little oomph.

Fast Forward 2 years with gasoline at $4.50 a gallon or more, and put yourself in the market for a car. If there were a car the size of the Prius with the performance of the Prius that got 20 MPG more, and a car a couple of inches longer/wider that did sub 8 seconds 0-60 that got 8 MPG more, which would you choose.

I predict that when the new Prius comes out, people's first reaction won't be "I'm glad it's more of a hot-rod" - it will be "I wish it got better mileage".

Yeah, ok, 55 MPG is better than the current one, and likely to be better than the competition. The argument that you're making is that 55 MPG is "Good Enough" and that taking the extra available mileage and diverting it to Size and Speed is an acceptable decision.

I believe that the game is changing, and will continue to change. People will recognize that they could have had better mileage, and that the 04 Prius Size and Speed really was "Good Enough", and they will be disappointed in the design/marketing decisions Toyota made.

I believe that Toyota was caught in the old cycle where every model change had to outperform the previous, with performance defined as Size and Speed. I believe that Mileage is also a measure of performance, and while it hasn't been at the top of anyones criteria list historically, it's moving up like a rocket.

I think that if Toyota had some Study Groups telling them what they wanted in the new Prius two years ago, the answers would be very different from what they would be today, and what they would be in two more years. As I said, the game is changing.

Cars aren't developed overnight, and you can't change major designs this close to release, so it's a safe bet the 09 Prius was largely set in stone at least a year or two ago. I get the gut feeling it was driven by those two or four year old Study Groups.

I truely do think Toyota missed the mark with this one. It's understandable but I'm still disappointed. I think there was a foresight failure here.

I don't necessarily think it will hurt Toyota too much initially, because as folks here have pointed out, the Prius will still be essentially the only game in town.

I just predict that there will be a lot of people sitting in rush hour traffic in their 09 Priuses and they won't be thinking "I wish I could go 0-60 in a half second less". They will be thinking "I wish I were getting better mileage".

This does mean that Toyota needs to hurry up with the High-Mileage variant of the Prius Line. Hopefully it will be the same size and performance as the 04 and get 70+ MPG. If so, sign me up

Yeah, the 09 Prius will be good. Maybe Good Enough. But it could have been great, and that's my lament.

[essaunders]

Originally Posted by alam99

I was at Kohls (the department store) the other day. They had a placard near the mall entrance, giving away a Prius. The strange thing was, the picture of the prius they had on the sign was a sedan, not the current hatchback model. Could it have been a picture of a generation I? Or of the new 2009 model? I didn't have a camera with me, if another member happens to pass by a Kohls, could they double-check that promotional placard?

I can confirm a sighting of the old model prius on the sign in a Kohls in NH. I wouln't read into it too much - other than the lack of attention to detail in the Kohls art/ promotion departments

[Tempus]

Here's someone else who feels like I do. It just surprises me where he comes from, knowing that site

Next-gen Prius Bigger, More Powerful | The Truth About Cars

By Justin Berkowitz
April 28, 2008

While I don't care for the Prius, I can't deny that it has been successful in America. Not just at sales or income for Toyota, but for having one of the highest profiles of any car on sale here and for legitimately changing the automotive game. But it looks like the Prius's developmental future is a lot more conventional.

Michele Krebs, writing for Edmunds' Auto Observer, reports a number of unfortunate developments for the next generation Prius, to be revealed at Detroit in January 2009. It's bigger - 3-4 inches, although not much heavier. The engine grows to 1.8 liters, and combined gas and electric power is up from approximately 110 horses to 160. But don't worry, fuel economy is up. So it's all okay, right? Wrong.

Most successive generations of automobiles are able to make improvements in all areas. That does not mean the distribution of those improvements - which are often compromises and tradeoffs - is ok. Fuel economy will be up in the next Prius? Imagine how much more it could be up if they weren't trying to squeeze another 50 horses out of the car, or adding 4 inches to the body.

Ms. Krebs also confirms that the Prius model range will grow (hopefully a smaller, lighter coupe is included), and reminds that a Lexus version with a 2.0-3.0 liter engine is still on the table.

This is an example of Toyota losing the plot, trying to make the Prius appeal to more people - and in so doing, diluting the one of the single most focused products on the automotive market. But hey, it's all in the pursuit of sales numbers.

[efusco]

Tempus, your point's well taken and, I think, understood by all of us. But the reality of the situation for hybrids, I think, is that we must first gain the widest possible acceptance, then, we can try to move back to smaller more efficient vehicles. If you try to force people into something they don't want or don't believe will work for them the bigger picture goals will fail.

[SureValla]

Tempus couldnt have put it better and efusco i think you have it slightly incorrect.

It wont be Toyota forcing to change in the future, it will be OPEC

[burritos]

Originally Posted by efusco

Tempus, your point's well taken and, I think, understood by all of us. But the reality of the situation for hybrids, I think, is that we must first gain the widest possible acceptance, then, we can try to move back to smaller more efficient vehicles. If you try to force people into something they don't want or don't believe will work for them the bigger picture goals will fail.

Wrong. What's going to get the widest possible acceptance will be $7-10/gallon gas. Toyota has the chance to strike while the iron is hot and increase its innovative lead in fuel efficiency. Instead it's beginning to sit on its laurels and act like american companies did when they milked the suv cashcow. I guess I can't blame them, they are a for profit business after all.

They can probably get away with doing this. Who's going to catch them? Maybe the chinese?

[spf]

I agree with efusco's points. I was just thinking, wouldn't the gen3 prius cannibalise sales from the Camry hybrid? They'd both be around $25 with similar room but the prius would get better mpg.

I also agree with tempus' thoughts. Toyota couldn't forsee the high oil prices we have today and the increased demand for high mpg vehicles. Toyota has an outstanding marketing division, but have historically been known for their conservative management, relative to other auto manufacturers.

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by efusco

Tempus, your point's well taken and, I think, understood by all of us. But the reality of the situation for hybrids, I think, is that we must first gain the widest possible acceptance, then, we can try to move back to smaller more efficient vehicles. If you try to force people into something they don't want or don't believe will work for them the bigger picture goals will fail.

I agree completely with your goals.

I just believe that Reality is Changing.

I believe that what will lead to the widest possible acceptance is Changing.

I believe that what people believe will work for them is Changing.

(Yes, I know I spelled Changing with a Capital C!)

I believe that you wouldn't have to 'force' people into a 70 MPG 04 Prius but that they would be gathered in mobs outside your door begging and pleading for one. I believe you might be able to collect a fair sized pile of first-borns if you were so inclined.

I believe that given a choice between a 55 MPG Camry (Which is basically what I consider the new 09 as described) and a 70 MPG 04 Prius, the Prius would out-sell the Camry.

Bottom line. I believe the world will be a different place in two years, just as it's very different now from two years ago, and that the announced Prius will not be the best that Toyota could have done for that Reality.

I believe that if the announced 09 Prius had been released two years ago, it might have been the perfect car for the reasons you cite. I just don't believe it will be the best choice for the future.

Of course, Time will tell and in two years one of us can come back and revive this thread for the appropriate Nyahh Nyahh Moment

Hindsight is 20-20 and I really suspect there are some people within Toyota who wish their Crystal Ball had been a bit clearer two years ago.

Of course, if I do turn out to be right I'll dig up the thread I posted over two years ago cautioning Toyota not to fall into the Bigger/Faster trap with the Prius. Think they'll hire me to help design the 2014 Prius?