2009 Prius BIGGER and FASTER (Yeah better mileage too)

[rpatterman]

2009 Prius, Bigger Faster


Don't want bigger or faster, I want a 100 mpg PHEV.
If Toyota follows standard car company plan of always bigger and faster they will lose the niche (cult?) market that they have created.
Unlike the last 4 years, two years from now we will have many high-tech, high-MPG options. The Prius will only be one of many choices.
To hang on to their current niche they need to push the limits with FE, not create another midsize sedan.
Toyota needs to realize that $4/gallon gas changes all the old school theories about running a car company.
Thanks to george w. any model plans formulated two years ago ($2/gal) are obsolete.

Toyota made a similar mistake by putting hybrid tech in the Highlander rather than the RAV. A RAV Hybrid would have by far the best FE
of any 4wd/AWD on the road and would have captured all the buyers who need 4wd but feel guilty about the carbon footprint.
Instead their first Hybrid SUV is just another midsize SUV with good (not great) FE.
My loyalty to Toyota only lasts as long as they are a FE/PHEV leader, not follower.

Bigger: -If I want bigger I could buy a Camary Hybrid.

-Two bikes and camping gear for a week in Jackson Hole, no problem.
-Three adult skiers with skis (inside), no problem.
-Double date, no problem.
-Annual trip to Costco, no problem.
-Pickup 5 rowdy teenagers at school, no way (thank God!)
-Works great for 95%+ of my needs

Faster: -Kansas State Patrol tells me it does 104 mph (since it was Christmas he wrote ticket for 94)
-Three adult skiers with skis, 75 mph+ all the way up to Eisenhower Tunnel, no problem.
-With studded snows, no problem skiing powder days (4-8") Over 8" I let one of my friends with a SUV drive (wait a minute, there are no friends on powder days!)
-My daily commute involves a steep, long climb out of Boulder that I regularly drive at 80 mph+, not because I am a Type A, speed demon, but
because I consider it my personal mission to demonstrate to all the SUV drivers that the Prius is a fun car, not some windup toy.
-At $4/gal everyone is slowing down, not speeding up. We will see 55mph again! Would rather slow down than sell my soul to the Saudis.

MPG: -With my heavy right foot I am happy to get 45 (half city/half highway).
-For fun I like to reset mileage on top of Loveland Pass or Trail Ridge Road and coast back to Boulder and see how many days I can keep at "99".
-My Ford Ranger gets better gas mileage since I have had my Prius because 1) the instant feed back of the mileage gauge has made me a better driver
and 2) I never drive it (200 miles since Sept).

Will drive my 2004 until someone comes out with significant FE improvement or PHEV.

[bob2780]

Hi Everyone
Here is why Gen3 is a sellout the Gen3 will give us only an incremental change
Sorry to say that Toyota missed the boat THEY KNUCKLED UNDER Remember the 1996 Toyota Rav4 EV
110 Mi range 80mph Panasonic EV95 12 volt battery 95amp/hr NIMH its pack of 24 = 288V 27KW

Sometime in 2001-2002 Chevron/Texaco/GM sued Toyota/Panasonic so they could not Sell or distribute or manufacture the battery they also limited the size of future battery build they had a better battery then the batteries in GM EV1 Thats why GM killed it and killed RELIABLE SAFE EV BAT TECH for a decade
so That’s why The Prius Has only a 1KW battery and NO EV range and no new rav4 EVS
The electric motors in the Prius are capable of 80mph IT PROBABLY THE SAME MOTOR THAT WAS IN THE RAV4 EV

People that still own Rav 4 EV'S are still running the original battery
Also the Chevron Energy cartel above own the battery patents for Lion technology thats why the expensive pack with its stability issues

They also have the same powersize restrictions that’s why the Tesla has some 6000 Cells

the hypermotion battery pack for the PRIUS PHEV is 5kw and the Ni-lar NMMH BIPOLAR battery IS 4 KW as compared to the 27kw pack of the shelved EV-95
That is why $4.00 gas and more THE CHEVRON ENERGY CARTEL are the REAL OPEC
in a recent interview the head of Chevron battery tech stated NIMH IS READY NOW dah
sorry for the rant guys and gals
BOB2780

[Rybold]

If slightly larger size and more power is what it takes to get MORE of the mainstream public interested in hybrids, then I'm all for it. It is better to have 50% of America driving hybrids than to have 10% of America driving hybrids.

Let us not forget though, that Toyota has already said that it plans to turn "Prius" into a division name (like "Scion" is a division name), and create several different versions within the Prius name. Perhaps, one will be based on the Yaris, one one the Matrix, and one on the Corolla. Who knows.

Yes I would like a Prius with a 1.1 liter that gets 80mpg, but there is a small part of me that also can't wait until some form of alternative energy car can do a 0-60 in 5.0 seconds. (Yes, I am aware of the Tesla, but I'm thinking of something more innovative, like a super fuel cell that can release a huge amount of KW power, yet still provide fuel for 500+ miles)

I think the single most important thing that Americans can do to improve national fuel economy though is to get SUVs off of the road !!!

[a priori]

Originally Posted by bob2780

Hi Everyone
Here is why Gen3 is a sellout . . .
Sometime in 2001-2002 Chevron/Texaco/GM sued Toyota/Panasonic so they could not Sell or distribute or manufacture the battery they also limited the size of future battery build they had a better battery then the batterie in GM EV1

I suppose this is well-known among many on PC, but I am not aware of it. Do you have any reference for the lawsuit or any write-up on this settlement?

Originally Posted by bob2780

so That’s why The Prius Has only a 1KW battery and NO EV range
The electric motors in the Prius are capable of 80mph IT PROBABLY THE SAME MOTOR THAT WAS IN THE RAV4S

I had thought the battery size was all part of the hybrid design, and I think the weight/output of the battery was pretty well-engineered to accomplish the task of producing high MPGs on a car that can be used without distance or speed restrictions.

Does anyone else know if this is true?

Originally Posted by bob2780

People that still own Rav 4 EV'S are still running the original battery
Also the Chevron Energy cartel above own the battery patents for Lion technology

I thought I had heard the Lithium ion battery patent (for one particular type of Lion battery) was owned by another manufacturer who had agreed to produce exclusively for GM. I have no evidence of this -- it only comes from a suspect memory.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by a priori

I suppose this is well-known among many on PC, but I am not aware of it. Do you have any reference for the lawsuit or any write-up on this settlement?

Cobasys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Short Version:
Cobasys is a joint venture between Chevron and Ovonic battery company. GM used to own the share that is currently owned by Chevron but sold it after the CARB EV mandate was repealed.

Cobasys won a lawsuit against Panasonic that limits the size of NiMH batteries that can be used in the US in vehicle applications until 2010. Panasonic is Toyota's supplier for NiMH batteries used in their hybrid vehicles.

[a priori]

jhinton -

Thank you for the useful link and information.

[finman]

More of the sad battery truth attached. why isn't THIS bigger news? Hmmmm...

Also attached how GM effectively killed off mass electric transport as well.

Sheesh, and people believe GM has our interests at heart and it'll be bad if they go (are going) bankrupt?

Strange world we live in.

PS For some reason the .pdf isn't working, so i tried a text version and a link:
History Detectives . Investigations - Electric Street Car | PBS

[Tideland Prius]

Originally Posted by bob2780

Hi Everyone
Here is why Gen3 is a sellout the Gen3 will give us only an incremental change

so I suppose the Gen 2 was a sellout too?

It was bigger and faster than the Gen 1 and only gave us an "incremental change" [in mpg].

[daniel]

The reason the Tesla has a few thousand laptop batteries has nothing to do with patents or limits on the size of batteries. Tesla (following in the footsteps of AC Propulsion, and using some technology licensed from ACP) chose this battery configuration to keep cost down: Laptop batteries are produced by the hundreds of millions (or perhaps by the billions) and are available as a commodity at reasonable cost. It was the cheapest way to pack enough punch.

In addition Altairnano's battery was not yet available when the Tesla was being designed. LiFePO4 is more stable than Li-Ion and therefore safer, but costs more and has a lower energy density. But it does not require liquid cooling as in the Tesla.

Newer EV projects are turning to LiFePO4. But it would have been a commercial and public relations disaster for Tesla to postpone the Roadster.

[bob2780]

Originally Posted by daniel

The reason the Tesla has a few thousand laptop batteries has nothing to do with patents or limits on the size of batteries. Tesla (following in the footsteps of AC Propulsion, and using some technology licensed from ACP) chose this battery configuration to keep cost down: Laptop batteries are produced by the hundreds of millions (or perhaps by the billions) and are available as a commodity at reasonable cost. It was the cheapest way to pack enough punch.

In addition Altairnano's battery was not yet available when the Tesla was being designed. LiFePO4 is more stable than Li-Ion and therefore safer, but costs more and has a lower energy density. But it does not require liquid cooling as in the Tesla.

Newer EV projects are turning to LiFePO4. But it would have been a commercial and public relations disaster for Tesla to postpone the Roadster.

Hi Everyone
Thanks to everyone who commented and expanded on it and picked up the ball I dropped on the thread
Thanks Daniel for straightening me out on the lion technology

To Tidelandprius No I don’t believe that Gen 1or Gen 2 are sellouts because of where the design revolution was when they were created, they were and probably still are ahead of the curve even with the NIMH size restrictions placed on it by Cobasys mandate

My comment about Incremental change was hoping that Gen 3 would have and should have an EV range of the 1996 Rav4EV technology phev80 instead of PHEV 40 with an MPG at least 80 the Prius is a Great car if we keep ourselves and the general public ahead of what is available hopefully support it and demand it maybe Toyota or someone else can get us out of this energy economical mess
Thanks again all I hope I Did not offend anyone

BOB2780