Breakeven: It's getting shorter, says USA Today

[Stringmike]

Obviously, since there is no non-hybrid Prius, the payback can't be computed as easily as for the Camry or Honda Civic which have similar IC versions.

However, there is a premium for a hybrid drive versus a conventional power plant. This is the extra cost of the electric motors, batteries, drive train and controllers. I seem to remember reading that Toyota sources put this "extra" cost for the Prius at around $2,500 and that Toyota's goal was to reduce this cost to about half this in the next few years.

To calculate the true cost of ownership, we should also include maintenance, repairs, battery replacement, insurance and depreciation of the vehicle.

To put this in perspective, a colleague recently told me he was wary of hybrids because of the possible need to replace the expensive battery. This was just after his three-year-old Ford Explorer shed its transmission, needing a $4,000 rebuild. Sometimes perception is far from reality!

Mike

[jayman]

Originally Posted by Jimmie84

I'm about to go work for TMC out of Des Moines here soon. They still run the Peterbilt 379's. I was just at Allstate Peterbilt in Saint Paul here and TMC always has a constant order of 379's in place.

I thought you worked at an Army base, or were recently in Alaska? Hmmm, guess I'm tired from the business trip and need a nap.

How does Arnnette/TMC fuel surchage compare to the industry average?

I really don't "get" this thing about "classic" looking class 8 highway tractors. The tractor has a job that must be done efficiently, who cares how it looks?

If the only way to retain drivers is to invest in non-aerodynamic tractors, perhaps they are catering to the wrong sort of drivers. Wonder if they have the governor disabled as well?

Near my hobby farm is a neighbor who has an o-o operation. He has 4 class 8's from Kenworth, the T2000 models. I suppose most truckers think they look "gay" and would never drive them

He has 4 brothers, 2 cousins, a nephew, and a brother-in-law involved, so it is very much a family operation. That means they all work together. So the primary objective for them is to make money, and those tractors are on the road virtually 24/7 with team driving. Cruise control never faster than 65 mph, usually 55-60 mph

All the tractors have the newer Cummins motors, with bypass oil filters for 80,000-150,000 mile oil changes, with Eaton auto-shift transmissions. He claims a fleet average of 8.2-8.8 mpg, which makes him extremely competitive in this age of high fuel prices. He figures the ROI on the T2000 is around 10 months, the way he drives them

He also claims you couldn't *give* him a "classic" Class 8. He has no sympathy for those owners of "classic" tractors who piss and moan about high fuel prices and going bankrupt. Even with the higher fuel prices, he is almost constantly being passed by other semi's

Good luck with the new career. Hope it works out for you

[jayman]

Originally Posted by Stringmike

To put this in perspective, a colleague recently told me he was wary of hybrids because of the possible need to replace the expensive battery. This was just after his three-year-old Ford Explorer shed its transmission, needing a $4,000 rebuild. Sometimes perception is far from reality!

Mike

Funny how so many folks seem to ignore this fact. A modern electronically controlled autobox is pretty expensive to fix once it s***s on you.

Folks who run away screaming from a hybrid due to the possibility of battery replacement (How many have actually *needed* the traction pack replaced, compared to autobox mortality rate?), think nothing of paying for a rebuilt autobox

[dogfriend]

Originally Posted by jayman

Folks who run away screaming from a hybrid due to the possibility of battery replacement (How many have actually *needed* the traction pack replaced, compared to autobox mortality rate?), think nothing of paying for a rebuilt autobox

In different thread about a year ago, we were discussing the same thing.

Which vehicle do you think could be repaired more easily and with a better confidence that the vehicle will function as new: A vehicle that needs a battery replacement or one that needs an auto trans rebuilt?

My opinion is that it would be much easier to replace the traction battery in the Prius. I've read too many posts on the Explorer forum about transmission rebuilds that have gone bad or only lasted a few thousand miles.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by dogfriend

Which vehicle do you think could be repaired more easily and with a better confidence that the vehicle will function as new: A vehicle that needs a battery replacement or one that needs an auto trans rebuilt?

That's obvious. The only way I would trust an autobox rebuild is one that is done at the factory. The "pro" models from TCI are also very sturdy, but you pay a nice premium for that too

The average hole-in-the-wall shop? Forget about it. Might as well take those bills and set them on fire, more satisfying than giving money to a fly-by-nighter

[DeadPhish]

Originally Posted by Stringmike

Obviously, since there is no non-hybrid Prius, the payback can't be computed as easily as for the Camry or Honda Civic which have similar IC versions.

However, there is a premium for a hybrid drive versus a conventional power plant. This is the extra cost of the electric motors, batteries, drive train and controllers. I seem to remember reading that Toyota sources put this "extra" cost for the Prius at around $2,500 and that Toyota's goal was to reduce this cost to about half this in the next few years.

To calculate the true cost of ownership, we should also include maintenance, repairs, battery replacement, insurance and depreciation of the vehicle.

To put this in perspective, a colleague recently told me he was wary of hybrids because of the possible need to replace the expensive battery. This was just after his three-year-old Ford Explorer shed its transmission, needing a $4,000 rebuild. Sometimes perception is far from reality!

Mike

Clarifications:

There is a non-hybrid Prius. It's called the Matrix/Vibe. Slick marketing on Toyota's part. Yes you are correct that the pricing differential ranges from about $2500 to about $3500.

However the comments about the 'true cost of ownership' are skewed by some very, very common but outdated misconceptions...
..the maintenance on the Toyota hybrids is actually LESS than that on comparable gasser models. Not by a lot but it is less due primarily to less brakewear.
..repairs? From insurance or breakdowns? It's no different than any other vehicle but according the CR and True Delta surveys the Prius, TCH and HH are even more reliable than their gasser counterparts.
..battery replacement? I hope that you're joking. This concept is so 2003-ish. Batteries do not have to be replaced for the effective life of the vehicle. They are lasting well above 150,000 miles and now into the 200,000+ mile range with no deterioration. This has been proven by Toyota's own bench testing, the Fed Govt in its parallel real world testing and thousands of real world drivers since 2000.
..insurance? It's the same as or lower than the gasser vehicles. You can look it up as they say.
..depreciation on the hybrids is actually significantly less then the gasser counterparts. True story from the auction lanes. A 2007 Prius package #2 with about 15000 miles went through the auction lane in Fla at... get this... $24600!!! Just to compare, the MSRP on this vehicle when new was $23600-ish. This of course is due to the price of fuel and availability. Supply and demand.

[daniel]

What's amusing here is that in the fall of 2003, when the 2004 model hit the showrooms, the 2001 had been on the road long enough, and the first Japanese model before that, that the battery pack had a long history of virtually 100% reliability. Anybody who was interested in facts rather than groundless Japan bashing knew that the likelihood of a battery failure was insignificant.

Of course, a population accustomed to buy lottery tickets (because "you can't win if you don't buy a ticket") is easy to convince that you should not buy a Prius because you "might" get a bad battery. The negligible odds of either event is beyond the comprehension of idiots.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by daniel

Of course, a population accustomed to buy lottery tickets (because "you can't win if you don't buy a ticket") is easy to convince that you should not buy a Prius because you "might" get a bad battery. The negligible odds of either event is beyond the comprehension of idiots.

The problem is that our society is regressing, and we are turning into fat, lazy, spoiled idiots. I'd be very worried when the majority of folks start to believe in "luck," magic, supernatural things, and turn their back on easily proven facts

Eg: a Prius NiMH traction battery pack has very , very low probability of going "bad" during the car lifetime, which scares off the idgits. An automatic transmission has much higher probability of frying, yet folks routinely accept it

Know anybody who purchased an early 90's Dodge Caravan? Those things had upwards of a 50% auto trans failure rate before 100,000 miles, yet a lot of those drivers kept going back for more

But if they see you driving around in a Prius "oh, I'd *never* buy one of those. I hear the battery only lasts 30,000 miles and costs $6,000 to replace"

These folks are beyond facts, beyond reason, as far as that goes beyond any effort on my part. I just use a comment that rhymes with "duck shoe" and leave it at that

It helps that I'm built like a nightclub bouncer and look mean

[DaveinOlyWA]

well... if i dont count the "depreciation" of my 2004 that i drove for 25 months and put 30,000 miles on, (i was paid $1800 more than i paid for it brand new when settling with the other guy's insurance company) i figure that with "today's" price (i figure, the gas will stay at the current price for today... maybe as much as tomorrow afternoon before going up again) i will pay off any premium at about 40,000 miles.... i also figured that anyone buying a Prius today will pay it off in about 25-30,000 miles since you will be saving 7 to around 12 cents per mile depending on what you drove before