South Florida - E85 for 85cents per gallon promotion, and Brazillian Sugar Cane Biofuel

[Rybold]

I just saw this on the news on television, then searched for it on Yahoo News. An E85 dealer, who operates two bio-fuel stations (E85 and biodiesel) in Southern Florida ran a promotion on Thursday, selling E85 for 85cents per gallon. Flex vehicles were lined up down the street to purchase E85.
Drivers brake at biofuel deal - 05/30/2008 - MiamiHerald.com

Most people that own Flex vehicles, mainly [only] GM vehicles, purchased the vehicles mainly because of a large government rebate of about $3000 off. (I do not know the exact amount) Most of those people do not live anywhere near biofuel filling stations. This just goes to show the lobbying power of GM in D.C. Govt. rebates on Flex vehicles, whether people live near a biofuel refilling station or not.

In other news, Brazil's president reiterated that biofuel is NOT the main source for higher food prices food shortages. (FACT: Brazil has been using solely biofuel for more than a decade now, and they produce more food than they consume; exporting a lot of food to other countries) Brazil's president said the main cause of increased food prices is due to the rapid increase in transportation costs; petroleum-based diesel. He said the main reason for food shortages is that the populations and standards of living in China and India has been increasing over the past decade and is just now reaching the limit in which food shortages are occurring. (aside from this article, I saw a segment on CNN last week that Brazil has been using sugar cane for fuel for over a decade now) Brazil's president also said that the reason American's are blaming biofuel is because we are using corn, a major staple in animal feed and other foods, instead of using sugar cane or cellulose-based ethanol. Sugar is a luxury; not a staple, and therefore does not compete with necessity foods. The WWF supports Brazil's efforts. The country has 355 million hectares of farmable land, of which sugarcane used to make ethanol fills 3.4 million hectares. Go to the link for statistics on U.S. and world bioethanol production:
Brazil says biofuel production not to blame for food crisis - Yahoo! News

[richard schumacher]

Outrage about fuel ethanol should be directed toward US agricultural policy. Fuel ethanol derived from corn is a welfare program for big business and landowners and a distortion of the market. Contact your Congresspeople and tell them to eliminate corn prices supports and the $0.54 import duty on ethanol. Use your home ZIP code to find their contact info here:
Congress.org Home

[miscrms]

Cool for Brazil, but mostly irrelevant to the US as far as I can see.

-Sugar cane is vastly more efficient for making ethanol than corn. There are very few places in the US where sugar cane can be grown. Where it does grow it doesn't grow nearly as well as it does in Brazil. As the worlds largest sugar producer, Brazil also has a large processing infrastructure already in place that they can make double use of. As a result its more expensive to make ethanol out of US sugar than US corn.

-Brazil is not 100% biofuel from what I've read. Numbers I've seen are 20% commercial, 40% light duty vehicles. Thats enough that they no longer have to import petroleum though.

-Brazil's fuel consumption is tiny compared to US. US actually made more gallons of ethanol last year than Brazil. That amount is a fraction of a percent of US consumption, while a large portion of Brazil's.

In my opinion biofuels are not a bad idea, but we need to get our consumption under control before they are really feasible in this country. Current US ethanol production does more environmental damage and costs more per gallon than dino fuel. Until that gets sorted out, it doesn't make much sense.

Rob

[hill]

Originally Posted by miscrms

Cool for Brazil, but mostly irrelevant to the US as far as I can see.

-Sugar cane is vastly more efficient for making ethanol than corn. There are very few places in the US where sugar cane can be grown. Where it does grow it doesn't grow nearly as well as it does in Brazil. As the worlds largest sugar producer, Brazil also has a large processing infrastructure already in place that they can make double use of. As a result its more expensive to make ethanol out of US sugar than US corn.

-Brazil is not 100% biofuel from what I've read. Numbers I've seen are 20% commercial, 40% light duty vehicles. Thats enough that they no longer have to import petroleum though.

-Brazil's fuel consumption is tiny compared to US. US actually made more gallons of ethanol last year than Brazil. That amount is a fraction of a percent of US consumption, while a large portion of Brazil's.

In my opinion biofuels are not a bad idea, but we need to get our consumption under control before they are really feasible in this country. Current US ethanol production does more environmental damage and costs more per gallon than dino fuel. Until that gets sorted out, it doesn't make much sense.

Rob

Ever notice the side of your soda can? Corn sweetner. It's virtually replaced cane sugar, & it's now in everything, from BBQ sauce to salad dressing. That's simply because it's cheeper to get your sugar from corn, than it is from cane. And what does biogas need in order to ferment into fuel? Sugar. Now it IS a huge waste of corn, because the crop needs a ton of water (wasting tons of electricity along the way, to get the water to the fields) ... and it needs huge amounts of petrochemical fertilizer & pesticides, so it all comes down to which resource you want to waste the most of.

Now lets look at Brazil's HUGE crime:
Burn down rain forests to grow crops. Rainforest is horribly poor soil, so without petrochemical fertilizers, the land is steril in just a few years at best. Then, it's on to burning down more rain forest, so you can grow more fuel crops, because you're only able to make your fuel crop "on the cheep" by not reinvesting fertilizer back into the soil.

Selling E85 cheep reminds me of the heroin dealer that gives his product away ... until you're really really in need of it. The solution isn't getting your addiction cheeper. The solution is getting the monkey off your back. Meanwhile, folks in the U.S. still believe its our God given right to drive the biggest mongo boat hauling 4x4 suv on the planet. . . . to the last drop.

.

[Rybold]

Originally Posted by hill

Ever notice the side of your soda can? Corn sweetner. It's virtually replaced cane sugar, & it's now in everything, from BBQ sauce to salad dressing. That's simply because it's cheeper to get your sugar from corn, than it is from cane. And what does biogas need in order to ferment into fuel? Sugar. Now it IS a huge waste of corn, because the crop needs a ton of water (wasting tons of electricity along the way, to get the water to the fields) ... and it needs huge amounts of petrochemical fertilizer & pesticides, so it all comes down to which resource you want to waste the most of.

In today's time (2008), the benefit of biofuels is the [perceived] carbon footprint. As you grow plants, they get their CO2 from the atmosphere, when you burn them, you return that CO2 to the atmosphere. The net amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere is zero. (I typed "perceived" because this does not factor in costs of production). Fifty+ years from now, if petroleum is "dry," we will need "biochemicals;" organic chemicals to produce plastic and materials, not just for consumers but for the medical industry, food and medicine packaging, and possibly water sanitation.

Originally Posted by hill

Now lets look at Brazil's HUGE crime:
Burn down rain forests to grow crops. Rainforest is horribly poor soil, so without petrochemical fertilizers, the land is steril in just a few years at best. Then, it's on to burning down more rain forest, so you can grow more fuel crops, because you're only able to make your fuel crop "on the cheep" by not reinvesting fertilizer back into the soil.

This is why we are trying to get hybrids and EVs on the road. One day, Brazil's vehicles and the worlds vehicles will be, at worst, highly-efficient hybrids. And, at best, EVs that get their electricity from solar sources.
(FYI: The president of Guyana has made an offer to the U.N. to hand over a MASSIVE portion of the Amazon to make it a protected natural habitat that would be protected by the U.N. He said he will do this in exchange for economic compensation. The U.N. is currently thinking about the possibility.)

[Courtney]

Originally Posted by hill

Now lets look at Brazil's HUGE crime:
Burn down rain forests to grow crops. Rainforest is horribly poor soil, so without petrochemical fertilizers, the land is steril in just a few years at best. Then, it's on to burning down more rain forest, so you can grow more fuel crops, because you're only able to make your fuel crop "on the cheep" by not reinvesting fertilizer back into the soil.

.

Thank you for bringing this important aspect to light. So few people understand the danger biofuels impose on our environment. When people hear "biofuel" they hear the "bio" part and think "green" - something good and positive, not destructive and dangerous.

[richard schumacher]

Rainforest loss is a crime against posterity, but most of Brazil's sugar cane is grown near their coasts and not on former rainforest land. I agree that ethanol produced from waste cellulose is the best solution, to minimize the diversion of land from food crop production.

[CarGuy60]

just my 2 cents worth, every gallon of a bio fuel is money that stays in the US, creating jobs and helping our balance of trade. If i have too choose one fuel, Gas from the middle east or bio fuel made here, there is no question which one is for me. The security of the country and our way of life, depends on eliminating foreign oil.

[hill]

Originally Posted by CarGuy60

just my 2 cents worth, every gallon of a bio fuel is money that stays in the US, creating jobs and helping our balance of trade. If i have too choose one fuel, Gas from the middle east or bio fuel made here, there is no question which one is for me. The security of the country and our way of life, depends on eliminating foreign oil.

Unfortunatly, your 2 cents don't incorporate an ugly truth. That 60% fossle fuel we import? The petro chemicle fertilizer that the corporate agro business uses, and the petro chemicle insecticide that the corporate agro business uses, are dollars going out to the pockets on the export countries. then there's the electricity to ferment the grain into fuel. More fossle fuel. It just goes on & on. Just lovely.