Toyota Seeks Battery-Price `Sweet Spot' for Plug-Ins

[gmalis1]

Someone explain to me...

why we are talking about 5-10 mile plug in range or a 40 mile plug in range?

It's already been shown that a 220 mile plug in range works...just ask Tesla!

Oh yeah, it comes with a "sweet spot" of 100K!

So...it definitely can be done...a LONG range plug in with electric mode only!

[Ari]

Originally Posted by gmalis1

Someone explain to me...

why we are talking about 5-10 mile plug in range or a 40 mile plug in range?

It's already been shown that a 220 mile plug in range works...just ask Tesla!

I think we can safely say that manufacturers estimates should be halved when considering real world range. Tesla = 125 miles:

Tesla Death Watch 15: 125 Miles on a Charge | The Truth About Cars

I'd be surprised to see the Volt get more than 20 miles EV for most people.

[Stefx]

Originally Posted by gmalis1

Someone explain to me...

why we are talking about 5-10 mile plug in range or a 40 mile plug in range?

It's already been shown that a 220 mile plug in range works...just ask Tesla!

Oh yeah, it comes with a "sweet spot" of 100K!

So...it definitely can be done...a LONG range plug in with electric mode only!

Benchmarking on a 100k USD car may not be the best reference.

HyMotion's pack may be a better reference as to what can be done... it's what? 30 miles EV range for 10k USD?

[DaveinOlyWA]

i agree with Evan in that options is what we need. i think ANYONE will do better if they offer at least 3 price points. i know from a LARGE amount of experience that a single offereing that is not in the price range of buyers will eliminate them from contention with no other reason othe than the initial price.

i see it every day with new Pri owners who last year said that the Pri was too much for what it did not realizing that it actually is not. after they get it, its the same thing " why didnt i do this in 2005!!. if i had known what this car was really about..."

well, it will be the same for PHEV owners... a percentage of the ones who take the 5 mile, $2,000 option will have it and will upgrade, sacrificing to pay the additional cost for more range, but it still increases the market for the extended range options, which will in turn, lower the price.

Toyota, give us a $25, 30 and 35,000 option. you will not regret it. if you dont, someone else will and it will take you 2 years to realize and fix your mistake.

[drees]

Originally Posted by Ari

I think we can safely say that manufacturers estimates should be halved when considering real world range. Tesla = 125 miles:

How is taking one owner's range claims as gospel any different than those who claim that their Prius only gets 35mpg in city driving when they are expecting 60mpg?

The phrase "Your Mileage May Vary" still applies, and I highly suspect that Martin's Tesla is not driven gently or with economy in mind.

Tesla did a lot of testing an claimed a range of between 150mi-250mi depending on how the car was driven.

Range will also be going up slightly when the v2 transmission starts rolling out as well.

[gmalis1]

The point isn't the price...it's that it can be DONE...a plug in all electric vehicle that can actually get 220 miles per charge (or 150 miles per charge...depending on the point of view).

The technology is there...already in place and delivered.

In two years Tesla states a proposed $50,000 vehicle, then in two more years a $30-35,000 vehicle...all based on the current electric motor technology.

I would say that anything over 100 miles per charge is pretty darned good. So, why quibble about 4 or 8 or even 25 miles per charge. It's chump change and highly unusable for most.

[Shawn Clark]

Tesla: A hundred grand for a 125 mile range two seater vehicle (unless you want do destroy that battery.) The extended range mode is not applicable as it will kill off the battery. Compare apples to apples, not oranges.

Sure it would be great as a very impractical type of sports car, but that is not what is being discussed. So, no, it has not been shown "that it can be done" because it hasn't been. An impractical two seater sports car getting only 125 miles is not anything like trying to go as far in a five seater with some cargo space as a family vehicle. The aero cross section will be greater as will the weight, and finding room for the batteries becomes a bigger issue.

125 miles per charge limits it to an in town/near town vehicle unless it is a plug-in hybrid...or we get interchangeable battery packs that can be swapped out at charging stations (the long term approach I advocate.)

[Kablooie]

Well let's see,
My current Prius goes perhaps a mile or so as electric only.
Only enough to drag myself near a gas station in an emergency.
(Which happened once. I had to walk several blocks to buy gas and carry it back to the car.)

My commute to work is 20 miles each way.
For me, my instinct tells me I would be willing to pay,

5 mi - $1000 - I don't think I'd pay extra for any fewer miles

10 mi - $1500 - maybe

20 mi - $2000 - This would cover my trip to work one way

40 mi - $5000 - This would cover my whole daily commute so would be worth a substantial premium

I don't think I would consider a premium over $5000.

These figures aren't due to any financial calculations. They are just my first instinctive feelings about it.

[daniel]

Originally Posted by efusco

I just don't understand why the feel the must have a 'one-size-fits-all' "sweet spot". Why not have it scaleable. Have a 5 mile pack, a 10 mile pack, a 20 and even a 40 mile pack. Yes, we know the 40 mile pack will cost us an extra $15-20k, but some of us will pay it. Others only commute 2-3 miles and would go for the cheaper 5 mile pack. It just can't be that hard to make that a customizable feature...then they sell it as reasonably as they can and let the market decide.

This suggestion makes so much sense that I am honestly surprised that Toyota didn't come up with it first. Nearly all cars come in different trim lines. There are folks here who drive Priuses with DVD NAV and Bluetooth. I didn't want those options. I just got the "safety" package: VSC and air bags all around. Other folks opt for the no-frills model. It makes perfect sense to have several different size batteries. The shorter-range trim lines will have more cargo space. It's a choice each buyer makes. Designing a new car from the bottom up, there's no need to give up the spare tire. You just design the interior space configuration to fit the options.

Originally Posted by Ari

I think we can safely say that manufacturers estimates should be halved when considering real world range. Tesla = 125 miles:

Tesla Death Watch 15: 125 Miles on a Charge | The Truth About Cars

I'd be surprised to see the Volt get more than 20 miles EV for most people.

"The Truth About Cars" is notorious as a crackpot web site. It's one guy who has a very narrow agenda and no concern for truth.

Originally Posted by Shawn Clark

Tesla [...snip...]

Don't believe anything you read on the crackpot web site mentioned above. However, I will agree that a small, lightweight two-seater cannot be extrapolated to a five-passenger family sedan. Much over 100 miles EV range brings a very high price tag.

But battery technology is constantly improving, and some big money is going into developing ultracapacitors.

Battery swapping is impractical, but fast-charging is technically possible now with the type of battery I have in my Xebra, and could be a reality with a much smaller infrastructure investment than swapping would require.

[Shawn Clark]

Originally Posted by Kablooie

My current Prius goes perhaps a mile or so as electric only.

I do a 1.1 mile stretch once or twice a week (tested in both directions) on battery only and don't recall moving more than 1 bar on the SOC display. On the flat the battery range appears to be several miles, recognizing that the display is non-linear. Climbing hills would be another matter entirely, and one of the reasons a lot more battery will be required.

daniel,

I don't see battery swaps as impractical at all, but fast recharging is dicey. Battery swaps will require design with that in mind, a different kind of filling station. There is no reason that specific form factors can't be designed for use among all manufacturers (several sizes). Besides, paying for the battery on installments rather than necessarily owning it from the start makes sense as it would speed adoption.