Chevron not yet done trying to derail hybrids

[viking31]

Originally Posted by AussieOwner

A friend of mine was telling me that based on the current demand on fossil fuel - coal, gas and oil - there is now only an expected 90 years before they ALL run out.

Humans will NEVER, I repeat, NEVER run out of oil, gas, coal, etc. While is may be plausible to assume we could exhaust all known reserves within X amount of time based on CURRENT demand, basic laws of supply and demand will simply gradually drive up the price of various resources such as oil, gas, and coal as they become more difficult to extract until other forms of energy (such as nuclear, solar, and wind) become more cost effective.

I remember decades ago as a teenager during the 70's about being constantly being preached by the media and even in school textbooks the world would soon and surely by the turn of the century be nearly completely dry of oil and natural gas. Such theories, driven mainly by politics, are as popular today as they were decades ago in getting votes.

Even Obama and Pelosi are realizing their silly no domestic drilling policies are backfiring to the detriment of their party, hence their change yet again in their major policy campaign platforms.

Rick
#4 2006

[dogfriend]

Originally Posted by McDonald

I guess you guys don't know that Chevron supplies the technology that is in your current Prius' battery. Not saying that they shouldn't have funded that project, but they do try to do some good with renewable energy, etc.

Uh, no I guess I didn't know that. The way I heard it is that Panasonic and Toyota jointly developed the batteries for the RAV4-EV (and then later for the Prius). Then Cobasys sued them for patent infringement later. I was not aware that Chevron supplied or developed anything related to the Prius battery other than holding the original patent(s) by Ovshinsky.

Do you have any links that explain how Chevron supplies the technology in my Prius battery? Cause I think they are sitting on the patent to prevent others from fully using the NiMH battery technology though a restrictive licensing agreement that they forced Panasonic and Toyota to accept.

[viking31]

Originally Posted by hill

The Prius battery is as big as it can be w/o violating Chevron's patent. Any bigger & you can be sure they'd be all over toyota like flys on stink.

The Prius battery, as I understand it, is simply an assembly of a numerous individual custom made NiMH cells assembled in series in one pack. That's patentable? What am I missing here?

Rick
#4 2006

[dogfriend]

Originally Posted by Godiva

Good luck to them. I'll bet the Federal Government has deeper pockets and better lawyers.

They don't need to win outright. They just need to slow the process down. Look how many years it took to resolve the Exxon Valdez fiasco.

[usbseawolf2000]

Originally Posted by viking31

The Prius battery, as I understand it, is simply an assembly of a numerous individual custom made NiMH cells assembled in series in one pack. That's patentable? What am I missing here?

Rick
#4 2006

The patent was for "large" format NiMH cells necessary for the electric vehicles. I believe they consider any cell over 8 AH to be large format. Prius 168 NiMH cells with 6.5 AH each.

[dogfriend]

Originally Posted by viking31

The Prius battery, as I understand it, is simply an assembly of a numerous individual custom made NiMH cells assembled in series in one pack. That's patentable? What am I missing here?

Rick
#4 2006

Cobasys (a division of Chevron aka Chevron-Texaco) holds 125 US patents related to NiMH battery technology. The company was originally started by Ovshinsky, but later sold to GM to produce batteries for the EV1. Hey, what ever happened to that car? Did someone kill it?

[viking31]

Originally Posted by usbseawolf2000

The patent was for "large" format NiMH cells necessary for the electric vehicles. I believe they consider any cell over 8 AH to be large format. Prius 168 NiMH cells with 6.5 AH each.

OK, I suppose you could take two Prius battery packs wire them in parallel and double the capacity but that would most likely mar the feasibility with added complexity and cost.

OTOH, it is within Cheveron's right to do whatever they wish with the patent, whether it be sit on it, collect royalties, or manufacture the product themselves.

Patents are usually good for 17 years. How much longer on this patent? But it might be moot point because commercial lithium feasibility may soon surpass NiMH.

Rick
#4 2006

[skruse]

Originally Posted by AussieOwner

The oil companies are starting to operate just like the tobacco companies did back in the late 80's. Anything to protect their business.

A friend of mine was telling me that based on the current demand on fossil fuel - coal, gas and oil - there is now only an expected 90 years before they ALL run out. He was mainly interested in coal, as he is in the electricity power station business and whereas 5 years ago there was some 195 years worth of coal reserves, this has dropped down to only 135 years of reserve as of last year. Oil is dropping faster than that, so you really wonder at the oil companies trying to protect their core business - because that core business is going to disappear sooner than they would like.

This is discussed in detail in Heinberg, R. (2007). Peak Everything, Waking Up to the Century of Declines. New Society Publishers.

While many perceive automobiles as a ticket to heaven, those of us who realize limits and understand sustainability see Chevron's and our own behavior as a ticket to hell.

[hill]

Originally Posted by viking31

OK, I suppose you could take two Prius battery packs wire them in parallel and double the capacity but that would most likely mar the feasibility with added complexity and cost.

OTOH, it is within Cheveron's right to do whatever they wish with the patent, whether it be sit on it, collect royalties, or manufacture the product themselves.

Patents are usually good for 17 years. How much longer on this patent? But it might be moot point because commercial lithium feasibility may soon surpass NiMH.

Rick
#4 2006

Chevron's unique battery chemestry allows for much deaper cycling, closer to 0% SOC, whereas the Prius batteries would never last 100K miles & beyond if you simply tied two packs together. A "right" to do what ever you want? I suppose. Just like if you had the last 1,000lbs of food on a desert island. Share it with 2 or 3 others? Or hoard it. Hey ... let 'em grow their own, right?

Point is, Chevron's imoral act can only be for one reason. Destroy the opposition. Just like the smoking lobby. Wear your opponant down in court as long as you can, so your profits during that last decade (prior to loosing the battle that was wrong in the 1st place, morally) can pay off the victims. Maybe soon li-ion WILL be a better & more practical chemestry, but not since the late 90's.

[dogfriend]

I hope it isn't too far off-topic to point out how the patent system in the US is completely screwed up. It was originally devised as a way to promote sharing of technology. Now it is more often used as a weapon by intellectual property firms (aka patent trolls) to extort money from companies that actually produce things.

This is just an example of that phenomenon. Cobasys agrees to produce batteries for Mercedes because they control the IP, but Chevron decides to delay and scuttle the project and they control Cobasys. It is industrial sabotage.

I wonder which firms will obtain the influential patents for Li-Ion technology in automotive applications? I wonder what they will decide to do with that IP?