Lotus - lets have some fun

[mrg]

But what is your big problem with adding a noisemaker to hybrids? The price of the device? The noise pollution? They dont have to be as loud as normal cars, but just audible.[/quote]

I have nothing against helping protect the blind, impaired people or children.

My last post was not a meant as a joke. Far more people are run into by other non motorized vehicles (bikes, scooters, shopping carts, golf carts, skates, etc.) than hybrid cars, probably every day. Yes my parked not running car was hit by a shopping cart just today. Of course the stores are not responsible, however that is not the subject here.

What kind of noise maker is a blind person going to hear in time that would not be to much noise? Then you will have far more people returning the hybrids to the dealers because they makes to much noise, instead of being too quite.

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Stivo

Yeah that with the number of accidents is a good argument. I still think maybe it will not happen in america, but it could happen somewhere else.

I am sorry but I can't figure out what "it" refers to.

Originally Posted by Stivo

But I still dont see the link to the backing over accidents. Just because the noise does not stop them to happen does not mean that taking all the noise away makes it any better.

Noise is the only system in place today and it already kills 4,700 pedestrians every year. It is already failing and the cost is measured in the loss of human life, paid in blood and broken bodies.

Originally Posted by Stivo

Not only hybrids but most cars already have the receivers tied to the horn and lights and only need the software to respond to these special keyfobs. <-- I did not know that, never heard of it. Can I have a source for that? Some link with more info on this?

Start with this link:
Requirements of Remote Keyless Entry (RKE) Systems - Maxim

A computer network engineer, this is just one part of the solution. But it is the foundation used for the special keyfobs. For a more complete description, read my submission to the NHTSA docket record.

Let me suggest that you ask one of your friends with a car if they will let you try the "panic" button or the button that honks the horn and flashes the lights. Tell them you would like to understand how far away from the car it works and would like to press the button yourself.

Understand that the special pedestrian keyfob would not have a button but work automatically. Furthermore, it would not sound the horn like the "panic" button but briefly 'bleep' it as well as flash the lights for the deaf. There are other design features but for now, ask a neighbor to let you feel one and try it ... when it won't cause a neighborhood disturbance.

Originally Posted by Stivo

Even if you do that: You drive around a city with some pre-school children, some wheelchairs and your horn goes on all the time?

It only 'bleeps', not a full throated honk and only briefly to alert the driver, the pedestrian and by-standers. The keyfob surrounds the special pedestrians with a mobile, electronic safety zone that lets everyone know they are there. Best of all, if I design it, cars will instantly go silent as soon as they pass the pedestrian. This avoids the noise masking problem.

In our country there is a type of accident at railroad crossings where as soon as one train clears the intersection, a waiting car pulls forward into the path of another train that had been approaching from the opposite direction and hidden or masked by the first.

You may have noticed a few occasions where one car just passed and as you started across the street, another car that had been approaching from the area of receding first car suddenly shows up. The first car's sound had masked the on-coming car in the next lane. The exhaust noise from the first helping to mask the second approaching car.

In the keyfob system I would design, build and test, as soon as the car knows it is leaving the presence of a pre-school child, it goes silent. Any noise the car makes while leaving the hazard area serves no good but to block the sound of another car approaching the potential impact zone. The short "bleep" also serves another vital function that no form of steady sound could ever achieve.

The "bleep" has quiet time between that allows other car "bleeps" to be heard. In contrast, the proposed steady state, noise makers are like a party in which everyone is trying to be heard ... no one is being heard because of the din of the noise makers.

Originally Posted by Stivo

Also this pops into my head: ...[sillyness deleted]

What other safety equipment should we ditch because it leads drivers to "pay less attention?"

Originally Posted by Stivo

But what is your big problem with adding a noisemaker to hybrids? The price of the device? The noise pollution? They dont have to be as loud as normal cars, but just audible.

Noise makers do not make pedestrians safer. Adding a noise maker to the exhaust pipe would not have saved the 25 kids backed over by their Moms, Dads and neighbors. We love our children and believe their 25 deaths deserve at least as much care and attention as the 5 blind who died in the same year.

Not one of the 5 blind that died was struk by a hybrid electric but mostly by pickup trucks. Even the blind deserved at least a horn "bleep" warning and not just a real or imitation engine noise maker.

Bob Wilson

[Stivo]

It was referring to extra accidents from silent cars.

Ok.
I see your point now. But that is thinking a bit long term. Currently we have the situation that some cars make sounds, and some don't. Your solution is that no car makes sounds, this will take a while and will not help the current potential issue. And I like the idea of making a special car a bit more normal if it can help security.

Yeah my friend told me about panic buttons. See in europe, keys dont have that usually. One button to close, one to open. Is it mandatory in the USA?

Well you made your point well. I get your idea now. Sounds a bit expensive and long term, but if there are no extra accidents in the meantime as you believe, it will be ok.
Still: Lets assume you are blind or pre school or something and everybody uses this system. You walk through a city and wherever you go, all cars will bleep at you? 100s of cars in a big city?
I turn off every unneeded sound in any program, device or anywhere where I can, because they annoy me. Being blind sucks already enough.

I was willing to give up soon, but somehow I cant. Silly me.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by Stivo

It was referring to extra accidents from silent cars.

Ahhh, I see it now. I too was curious about hybrid electric accident rates and in particular, the Prius since it was the first hybrid electric sold in the USA with an electric mode. That is why the Prius-to-pedestrian accident rate is so important.

When Dr. Hogan analyzed the Prius and non-Prius pedestrian accident rate the numbers came in (from memory so I don't have the units handy
.11 - Prius
.12 - non-Prius

These numbers are so close together that they are virtually identical in statistics.

Originally Posted by Stivo

I see your point now. But that is thinking a bit long term. Currently we have the situation that some cars make sounds, and some don't. Your solution is that no car makes sounds, this will take a while and will not help the current potential issue. And I like the idea of making a special car a bit more normal if it can help security.

I think it makes sense to add additional text to the existing airbag warning on all of our sun visors. All airbag cars carry a warning about small people potentially being injured and what you must do to minimize their risk.

I would agree that each hybrid electric should have a warning about electric-only operation and list the speed ranges. This is also important because the car's efficiency increases significantly if the driver stays in that range. But it makes sense to warn the driver to take special caution when pedestrians are about.

A warning like this can be done within 90-120 days and retrofitted to all hybrid electric cars ... certainly when they are sold.

Originally Posted by Stivo

Yeah my friend told me about panic buttons. See in europe, keys dont have that usually. One button to close, one to open. Is it mandatory in the USA?

I don't know if it is mandatory but if you were in some of our parking lots. At Christmas time, the parking lots can easily have 2-5,000 cars and someone will forget where they left their car. We see panic in the faces of parents laden with gifts trying to find their cars and the relief when their car beeps and flashes the lights ...

Originally Posted by Stivo

Well you made your point well. I get your idea now. Sounds a bit expensive and long term, but if there are no extra accidents in the meantime as you believe, it will be ok.
Still: Lets assume you are blind or pre school or something and everybody uses this system. You walk through a city and wherever you go, all cars will bleep at you? 100s of cars in a big city?
I turn off every unneeded sound in any program, device or anywhere where I can, because they annoy me. Being blind sucks already enough.

The only new hardware is a special keyfob for pre-schoolers, the blind and other special pedestrians. They would actually use the same electronics as the current keyfobs but with a universal broadcast code. The vehicle electronics is already there and only needs a software change to recognize the broadcast address and react appropriately.

Today, our cars come with two keyfobs and I have no problem with mandating a third, the pre-schooler keyfob. This would be battery operated and coded to expire in three years, long enough for a two year old to reach kindergarten age. The keyfobs for the blind would have a 50-80 year code and could be fitted with a self-powered generator. But I'm starting to go beyond what I would like to discuss in public.

Originally Posted by Stivo

I was willing to give up soon, but somehow I cant. Silly me.

Actually I'm looking for an ambassador, someone in the blind community who can serve as a bridge between our communities. I think you came with some assumptions about hybrid electric owners, some of which others have through crude attempts at humor, nurtured. But I think you may have a better understanding of what we are after.

I have tried to discuss these issues with some of the North American blind community leaders but they seem to suffer from what I call,"selective audio accuity"--they only hear what they want to hear. This makes a dialog difficult. But sometimes, an ambassador can 'translate' between our communities and help us work together for common goals.

I am not so naive as to believe all of us will come together and be great friends with a joint resolution. Rather, I seek consensus, the absence of violent objection. If you can help us reach out to the blind community, an open forum where we can exchange our ideas and opinions, much like we have just done, we may yet make progress without having someone stomp off and try to 'burn down the house.'

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

ps. Vous venez de Suisse de langue française ?

[Stivo]

Yeah that with the number of accidents is a good argument. I still think maybe it will not happen in america, but it could happen somewhere else.


Quote:
Ahhh, I see it now. I too was curious about hybrid electric accident rates and in particular, the Prius since it was the first hybrid electric sold in the USA with an electric mode. That is why the Prius-to-pedestrian accident rate is so important.

When Dr. Hogan analyzed the Prius and non-Prius pedestrian accident rate the numbers came in (from memory so I don't have the units handy
.11 - Prius
.12 - non-Prius
End Quote
Actually I saw this. So it did not happen in america. Thats what I said in the first sentence with the it. But maybe in other countries with other habits, it could happen somewhere else. I am usually not thinking primarily about america, for one because I dont know too much about it.

Ok so you say it is not expensive. But you did not say anything about my vision of this poor blind man being bleeped at the whole time in a big city.

I have, in general, a high opinion of hybrid owners, not only from this site. Thats why I thought I should react because some comments on this issue were too one sided and easy for my taste.

PS: Non, je suis de la parte allemande.

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Stivo

... But maybe in other countries with other habits, it could happen somewhere else. I am usually not thinking primarily about america, for one because I dont know too much about it.

I asked a Japanese friend, Ken@Japan, and he was able to find pedestrian accident rates but nothing that broke it out by the condition of the pedestrian. As you might expect, the Japanese have a fraction of the pedestrian accidents that we have in the USA per person. Also the Japanese have done stellar work in putting digital cameras in fleet vehicles for accident research.

I also suggested in my submission that the NHTSA contact the United Kingdom that has an extensive network of street cameras. I suspect the UK traffic safety and monitoring authorities may have actual video of pedestrian accidents and we might be able to learn something.

Originally Posted by Stivo

Ok so you say it is not expensive. But you did not say anything about my vision of this poor blind man being bleeped at the whole time in a big city.

Actually, he is in a safety zone that travels with him. The horn 'bleeps', not a constant stream but just the traffic around him and lets him know from which direction the potential threat is coming. He still has the engine and tire noise from other vehicles and the horn 'bleeps' can be modulated to be in proportion to the risk. One easy trick is to ... again, we are getting into areas I would prefer not to discuss in public, yet.

Originally Posted by Stivo

I have, in general, a high opinion of hybrid owners, not only from this site. Thats why I thought I should react because some comments on this issue were too one sided and easy for my taste.

It is even worse with non-hybrid owners. Many of them first react by laughing and suggesting we have playing cards mounted so the spokes of our wheels will flip them. It is the first reaction of those who have not been following the issue and looked at it deeply.

Originally Posted by Stivo

PS: Non, je suis de la parte allemande.

That explains your excellent English. We share a common language source, low-German, from Friesland, that pretty much replaced the Celtic with Saxton. I had occasion to visit the USA Library of Congress and see a 1500s version of the Lord's Prayer. I was struck by how easy it was to see the Saxton-Germanic roots married to the Norman verbs.

Later,
Bob Wilson

[b2j2]

Long, long ago there was a fellow across the street who bought a shiny new Frasier sedan. He was very proud of his car and fussed over it (sounds familiar). Certain teenagers put a pebble or two in one of the rear hubcaps. Made clicking sound at low speed, nothing at higher speeds. Drove fellow nuts for a day or two! (I think he took it back to dealer).

Voila! Low tech, low cost, low speed "noise", no batteries required.

[nerfer]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Apparently we have another poster who failed to read the attachments of the first post in this thread. Probably not a troll, just lazy:

Apparently anybody who disagrees with you is either lazy or a troll. There are other opinions allowed here, and some may even be as reasonable as yours.

It is your car and you are welcome to make it sound like whatever you want. Just a caution, Huntsville AL has a noise ordinance that is enforced.

Normal car noise is not allowed in Huntsville? Even your repetitive news articles talk about adding a speaker that simulates normal engine noise. This seems a heck of a lot less obtrusive (to the driver and pedestrians) than some fancy bleeper system that relies on individuals carrying a fob around. Which does not address the casual shopper coming out of a store with a load of groceries looking for her car keys, or the family with several children, first buying enough fobs, then making sure each one has their fob with them every time they go out to play on the sidewalk.

This will never fly, and unless you own a fob-making company I have no clue why you think this is more feasible (or reduces legislation and expense or singling out of hybrids) than a simple low-powered speaker in the front of the car (or an ultra-low setting on the horn). And what happens during the years before this fob & bleeper system is tested and approved? A new intended-use safety product like this cannot simply be adopted overnight. Even if both systems make no effect (since apparently there's no problem to begin with, by your comments), just let us fit in with the other cars and we'll be protected with a whole lot less headache and fewer parts.

If it made the car safer, we would have seen that in the traffic accident statistics. Use the forum search for:

ANALYSIS OF BLIND PEDESTRIAN DEATHS
AND INJURIES FROM MOTOR VEHICLE CRASHES, 2002-2006

5 deaths a year is not a significant data source, particularly when most of that time, the Prius was less than 1% of the general car population. I'm not saying this is or isn't a major problem for the blind or the general population. But neither is the data.
Regarding the SUV backover situation, the rear bumper has an ultrasonic rear parking assist, which was turned off prior to the accident (driver was backing out of a driveway, not parking, I assume was the logic used). Not sure how that applies to this situation. Backing up out of driveways, etc. is definitely a dangerous situation with small children who are not always aware of their environment (sounds available or not).

[Stivo]

I believe that my english comes from: the internet, watching american tv shows & movies, school, programming etc. There are some similarities between the languages, but they both derive ultimately from latin so of course they do.
Anyway.

I did not even look at the data. 11 accidents is not really statistically significant. More silent cars will come, and the problem will probably show itself then if it is one.
Here is a quote from you, I just learned you are fighting this fight on several fronts:
I want to know when one of the blind is about as well as pre-schoolers with LED flashing sneakers as well as deaf. But otherwise, we don't need any extra noise. We have to share the roadways so it is time for the blind, deaf, and preschoolers to let us know they are in the area ... so we can avoid an accident.
(Hybrid cars may pose silent threat to the blind | courier-journal | The Courier-Journal)
This is a bit what bugs me. It may be badly taken out of context, but what I read form this is: You dont want to happen any accidents to you. This is a good thing, but did you consider the other side enough? Blind people do not want to be marked more than they already are (I guess). Imagine yourself walking along side a blind person in the street and getting all the time bleeped at, just because you are in the vicinity of a blind person.
Also again another link I can not understand. Why do you want to know about deaf people? Deaf people know they cant rely on sounds, and they can see well. So they will be the most cautious people around streets, looking both sides twice before they even put a foot onto the street...
And how you do want to stop it from becoming annoying you can not publicly tell. So until you can reveal your whole plan, there is no point in pursuing this thread of thought. Maybe your idea is exceptionally brilliant. But from my current knowledge I just dont believe that.


Quote from this thread:
I have tried to discuss these issues with some of the North American blind community leaders but they seem to suffer from what I call,"selective audio accuity"--they only hear what they want to hear. This makes a dialog difficult.
End quote.
Maybe it is also a bit about you? Having a dialog with you is not exactly easy. You are very fast to judge someone who has a different opinion. You felt attacked fast and insulted opponents. A constructive dialog does not start like this. In dubio pro reo - Try it!

Sometimes the most obvious, easy solution can be the right thing. Even if it is here a short term solution. As long as you cant even elaborate your ideas in detail, yours seems to me like a very long time solution.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by Stivo

I believe that my english comes from: the internet, watching american tv shows & movies, school, programming etc. There are some similarities between the languages, but they both derive ultimately from latin so of course they do. ...

I had occasion to study the history of the English language and wrote a term paper on it. So I was able to see how Saxton, Angles and Normans merged their native languages to become Elizabethan English. It was a fascinating study made more interesting by understanding the origins of 'low German' as opposed to 'high German' as in mountainous.

On your other comments, I'll reply after a bit but I have chores to do. I will be quite happy to expand upon each element. Remember, this is a dialog but sometimes I am called away.

Later,
Bob Wilson