Preview: 2010 Honda Insight

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted by joe1347

Is it reasonable to assume that there is a reasonably large demographic that strongly prefers Honda (over Toyota) and even though the Insight looks to be somewhat inferior to the Prius, this Honda demographic will still buy an Insight?

I have 2 Honda's albeit I wouldn't categorize myself as having a strong preference for Honda's. I have been following Prius and I am a big fan of HSD and Toyota's hybrid tek. The major barrier to me getting a Prius already was simply price. I try to keep an open mind and see both Honda and Toyota as great companies.

Prius price was over $30K couple of years ago and now is just under, I think around $27K. At one point C$ was actually higher than US$, yet the Canadian Prius was almost $10K more expensive. I sent an e-mail to Toyota Canada and got no reply. So given there are plenty of convnetional cars around $20K and below and given the economic turmoil around the world, I just don't see much sense in spending $30K+ on a new car of any sort today.

To be fair hybrid Civic is not much cheaper, so same issue. No new hybrid Civic for me.

While in the US pricing is much tighter and differences between hybrids or hybrid vs conventional are much smaller, in internation markets prices are often higher and so are differences magnified.

Thus you can easily see how a cheaper hybrid could have a wider appeal and sell in more expensive international markets where Prius is out of reach for most people. In that sense Insight and Prius are not even in competition as they appeal to different markets.

Now that range as rather wide. I wouldn't consider $25K a big improvement. It wouldn't sell as most people would pay $2K more for a Prius (speaking of Canada). On the other hand if it were in the lower range say around $20K then it would be around $7K cheaper which is a big difference, for sure.

I guess the main point is that few people are dedicated Honda customers. Instead, most people buy Honda's because we look for a good value and don't mind missing a few features. Toyota is also a good value, just focused more on higher end. That is all.

Thanks for thr link BTW

[ken1784]

Originally Posted by Tideland Prius

I know the purpose was to provide a very affordable hybrid but why would it be less than the HCH if it's the same system on a (supposedly) lighter vehicle?

The Insight has scaled down battery and motor, and I can't see any innovations on it.
I would like to say Insight is poor man's HCH.

OTOH, 2010 Prius has more powerful engine and motor to increase performance with increasing fuel economy.
I see a lot of innovations on it.

Ken@Japan

[edmcohen]

The cone-and-belt CVT transmission seems like a drawback to me. I would expect Honda hybrids to age far less well than Toyota ones because those transmissions will wear poorly. The Toyota system seems elegant. The Honda one does not.

[KMO]

The Insight is slightly more efficient than the Civic Hybrid, in European measurements, according to Honda (UK)

Insight 1.3 IMA CVT SE = 64.2mpg (4.4l/100km), 101g/km CO2
Insight 1.3 IMA CVT ES/ES-T = 61.4mpg (4.6l/100km), 105g/km CO2
Civic 1.4 IMA CVT = 61.4mpg (4.6l/100km), 109g/km CO2

(The mpg figures are derived from the l/100km figures, meaning they're really only precise to 2 significant figures).

They must be a bit gutted about the Insight SE - if they'd managed to get 100g/km CO2, they'd have gotten it into the lowest UK tax band...

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted by edmcohen

The cone-and-belt CVT transmission seems like a drawback to me. I would expect Honda hybrids to age far less well than Toyota ones because those transmissions will wear poorly. The Toyota system seems elegant. The Honda one does not.

Could you provide some links about Insight's CVT? Could you comment on the cost/reliability of Insight's "cone-and-belt" as opposed to the more sophisticated Prius'? thanks

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted by ken1784

The Insight has scaled down battery and motor, and I can't see any innovations on it.
I would like to say Insight is poor man's HCH....

Sure, poor man's HCH or poor man's HSD, they are all fine descriptions. Indeed, that was their design goal, so seems they succeeded. Most Prius fans here seem to deride Insight for being cheaper and scaled dow version of older brothers. While Insight itself may not have any earth shattering innovations, nevertheless it may play a significant role in hybrid development. Note how hybrids as part of overall car market stalled around 3% give or take. Insight could be the key element to going over that barrier (no talking about 4% or 5%, but more like 10% and higher). As an example, consider personal computers when mainframes ruled. Event today people swear by the technology in mainframes and how personal computers didn't really have any innovations - mainframes did it all decades before PCs. However, as well all know PCs took computers to another level and spawned a number of other revolutions, perhaps less technical and more social. I won't bother enumerating here ... The point is that cheaper scaled down hybrid - Insight - while lacking technical innovation may in fact generate other large scale changes, such as social changes like mass move to hybrids, making hybrid dominant, etc. If anything Insight will *HELP* Prius by enlarging the market for hybrids. Once hooked on hybrids via cheap Insights, many people will look to upgrade to a Prius. So you should stop looking at cheaper simpler Insight as a bad thing and start thinking of it as a fantastic things. Just because Fits and Corollas and many other compacts or sbcompacts are smaller and cheaper doesn't mean that they don't sell and they are not good cars for their specific market.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by bob_ninja

Could you provide some links about Insight's CVT? Could you comment on the cost/reliability of Insight's "cone-and-belt" as opposed to the more sophisticated Prius'? thanks

Here is a good link: CVT - what the Continuously Variable Transmission is and how CVT works

I wouldn't worry about CVT reliability. They are much simpler than conventional automatic and mechanical transmissions. When they first came out CVT's were only used on low-power engines due to the rubber belt. Now CVT's use multi-link steel belts so this is no longer a problem. Automotive CVT's have been used for decades but they only became popular with major manufacturers in the US around 2000.

This link has a good automation: HowStuffWorks "Pulley-based CVTs"

[Tideland Prius]

Originally Posted by KMO

The Insight is slightly more efficient than the Civic Hybrid, in European measurements, according to Honda (UK)

Insight 1.3 IMA CVT SE = 64.2mpg (4.4l/100km), 101g/km CO2
Insight 1.3 IMA CVT ES/ES-T = 61.4mpg (4.6l/100km), 105g/km CO2
Civic 1.4 IMA CVT = 61.4mpg (4.6l/100km), 109g/km CO2

(The mpg figures are derived from the l/100km figures, meaning they're really only precise to 2 significant figures).

They must be a bit gutted about the Insight SE - if they'd managed to get 100g/km CO2, they'd have gotten it into the lowest UK tax band...

I believe the Civic IMA is 1.3 litres.

Originally Posted by ken1784

The Insight has scaled down battery and motor, and I can't see any innovations on it.
I would like to say Insight is poor man's HCH.

OTOH, 2010 Prius has more powerful engine and motor to increase performance with increasing fuel economy.
I see a lot of innovations on it.

Ken@Japan

True but if it's cheap and people will buy more hybrids, then we can get more people into hybrid technology, right?

[Per]

I'm surprised the Insight has lower EPA estimates than the HCH. Smaller car with less power should equal better MPG. They must have left something out--perhaps the engine shutdown when coasting? The main saving grace is the hatch and lower price. Only time will tell if this is enough to draw new buyer into the hybrid fold.
The new Prius on the other hand has some significant improvements, and I'm looking forward to getting a closer look. We're going to an auto show in Houston next weekend--hope they have one there!

[Tideland Prius]

Yeah but take note that the press has been getting 60mpg plus