Honda's Prius-Killer Resembles Road Kill 4 Months After Entering U.S. Market

[cwerdna]

"Honda's Prius-Killer Resembles Road Kill 4 Months After Entering U.S. Market" Green Car Advisor

[rfruth]

The Insight does appear to have been a swing and a miss for Honda, they wanted to be the hybrid for the rest of us, what happened ? (I'd say people are willing to pay more for the real thing)

[Tideland Prius]

Price isn't low enough. In Canada, it's $23,900. That's more than a loaded Corolla LE with power driver's seat, power moonroof, SKS, auto-climate control and more. A Civic LX-SR is around $22k and an EX-L is $24k. If you want people to buy, you're gonna have to make some compromises to begin. I was hoping fora $21k starting price. This will bring it closer to a Civic DX-G (most popular Civic model), Corolla CE Pkg "C" (most popular Corolla) or a Mazda3 GS. $23,900 is a few hundred less than a base Camry LE w/ auto.

Then we get an EX but it's the equivalent of the EX w/Navi in the US. We don't get a regular EX model. The price for that is $27,500 or exactly the same as a base Prius (and $200 less than a Civic Hybrid).

So what you're saying is that if you want TCS/VSA, you have to get the nav.

[hill]

Honda missed their chance to be the next "Toyota". Now, Volt / GM wants next crack at being "Toyota".

If the volt ever gets built:
1) Will it be in such limited markets (like the original Insight) that it reamains a non-issue?
2) Will it be the next "all hot air" attempt at knocking off #1?

Will Honda scrap out this Insight for a better Prius fighter?

[bluetwo]

As someone who is about 99% non-biased I have to point out that this thread and the article it is about is completely insane from the getgo because:

No one at Honda ever made any kind of claim that the Insight would be a Prius killer, in fact they knew and told the public that it wouldn't get as good an MPG as good as the Prius from before it was even released and all along it was well known that the Insight would fall short in certain ways because of how it was rushed to the market.

Whoever coined this phrase "Priuskiller" is obviously trying to stir up hype against Honda and is obviously biased.

Hill, Honda is likely to keep using the current Insight platform when it introduces it's new hybrid system.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by bluetwo

. . .
No one at Honda ever made any kind of claim that the Insight would be a Prius killer, . . .

Honda is likely to keep using the current Insight platform when it introduces it's new hybrid system.

I'm pretty sure "Prius killer" came from automotive press articles as part of the run up. Though I've not made a study, I'm pretty sure folks here have made fact-based observations about the Honda Insight ... those who have sat in and inspected the vehicle. I didn't get as far as a road test because I hit my head just trying to get in car and it was obviously too small for our family. My prediction was the Honda Insight was more competition for small cars like the Scion/Corolla/Yaris/Focus. It is in that class.

Although I understand the history, I think Honda is making a mistake sticking with the IMA. Without the ability to stop turning the engine and use electric power, such vehicles will have a significant mileage penalty against a similar class vehicle using the Ford/Toyota system. Even the Hyunda hybrid may be better if as I suspect, their motor can provide power without turning the engine.

The reason for this is internal engine drag. Although we often think of the engine as a power source, part of that power has to overcome the internal engine friction. This energy loss is avoided if the engine can come to a complete stop while the car travels down the road. Sad to say, the IMA has no clutch between the IMA and the engine so the motor can provide vehicle power while the engine is not spinning. If they moved the motor to the other side of the clutch, even if it means adding a 12 V starter motor, Honda could see a 'step up' in performance.

Then if Honda will send someone over to measure the average American driver/passenger ...

Bob Wilson

[bluetwo]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Although I understand the history, I think Honda is making a mistake sticking with the IMA. Without the ability to stop turning the engine and use electric power, such vehicles will have a significant mileage penalty against a similar class vehicle using the Ford/Toyota system. Even the Hyunda hybrid may be better if as I suspect, their motor can provide power without turning the engine.
Bob Wilson

Can't argue with the design flaws, but I'm sure that Honda is going to be just fine in the long run. The current hybrids are going to sell well enough and the new hybrid system is speculated to end up a lot like the Hybrid Synergy Drive system. It might even debut as a plug-in system which of course will spark up all the bashing yet again because what Toyota fans will fail to realize is that Toyota did in fact learn a lot of lessons from Honda's real world R&D (1st generation Insight) and it only seems fair for Honda to reap similar benefits in the future without having to bear the brunt of the growing pains a second time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


(joking of course, no offense to Bob or anyone else in particular)

[LRKingII]

Originally Posted by bluetwo

Can't argue with the design flaws, but I'm sure that Honda is going to be just fine in the long run. The current hybrids are going to sell well enough and the new hybrid system is speculated to end up a lot like the Hybrid Synergy Drive system. It might even debut as a plug-in system which of course will spark up all the bashing yet again because what Toyota fans will fail to realize is that Toyota did in fact learn a lot of lessons from Honda's real world R&D (1st generation Insight) and it only seems fair for Honda to reap similar benefits in the future without having to bear the brunt of the growing pains a second time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


(joking of course, no offense to Bob or anyone else in particular)

I'm not sure i'm following here "Toyota learned from the Insight" Do you know which car was on the market first?

[Tideland Prius]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

I'm pretty sure "Prius killer" came from automotive press articles as part of the run up. Though I've not made a study, I'm pretty sure folks here have made fact-based observations about the Honda Insight ... those who have sat in and inspected the vehicle. I didn't get as far as a road test because I hit my head just trying to get in car and it was obviously too small for our family. My prediction was the Honda Insight was more competition for small cars like the Scion/Corolla/Yaris/Focus. It is in that class.

Although I understand the history, I think Honda is making a mistake sticking with the IMA. Without the ability to stop turning the engine and use electric power, such vehicles will have a significant mileage penalty against a similar class vehicle using the Ford/Toyota system. Even the Hyunda hybrid may be better if as I suspect, their motor can provide power without turning the engine.

The reason for this is internal engine drag. Although we often think of the engine as a power source, part of that power has to overcome the internal engine friction. This energy loss is avoided if the engine can come to a complete stop while the car travels down the road. Sad to say, the IMA has no clutch between the IMA and the engine so the motor can provide vehicle power while the engine is not spinning. If they moved the motor to the other side of the clutch, even if it means adding a 12 V starter motor, Honda could see a 'step up' in performance.

Then if Honda will send someone over to measure the average American driver/passenger ...

Bob Wilson

umm... Bob. Honda's IMA may be inferior on paper but the fact that in Canada, the HCH-II's mileage is that close to the Prius speaks of technological wonders. It's cheaper to make, simpler and cheaper for the consumer to buy. It runs like a normal car and it does have that quasi-EV state.

The way you wrote your post, it seems that you think that IMA is a worthless piece of engineering. Honda's idea of the IMA was to provide a low-cost alternative and so far, they've succeeded. Whether people buy into that is another debate all together.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by Tideland Prius

. . .
The way you wrote your post, it seems that you think that IMA is a worthless piece of engineering. Honda's idea of the IMA was to provide a low-cost alternative and so far, they've succeeded. Whether people buy into that is another debate all together.

If it appears that way, my apologies. I'm only trying to point out that the best way to avoid paying an 'overhead' energy cost in a hybrid is to spin only what is necessary. In other treads I'd discussed how the IMA provides the low-end torque needed to let a relatively small displacement engine perform like a larger displacement engine. This is good news although it could be better.

The IMA has no clutch between the ICE and the electric motor and though the valves can be opened, in EV mode it still has to spend some energy dragging the pistons up and down as well as the water and oil pump drag. The small IMA motor and electrical system still has this overhead that robs EV range. That is why the Hyundai system (if it ever shows up) with a clutch between the engine and electric motor, should prove fairly efficient and may provide effective competition to the Prius.

IMHO, a single motor hybrid works best if there are two clutches: (1) engine side and (2) transmission side. This allows the motor to contribute only as needed and only where needed and the same is true with the engine:

engine clutch	motor clutch	requirement
on	on	peak power demands
on	on	peak braking demands
off	on	electric vehicle mode, urban speeds
off	on	regenerative braking mode
on	off	highway cruise with 75% charged battery
on	off	descending hills with fully charged battery

For what it does, the IMA is OK and I could see the single-clutch architecture married to a 'clean' two-stroke motorcycle (direct fuel injection and dry sump) becoming a real street terror. BTW, I had a little 'wicked fun' surprising a loud Harley this weekend. The IMA in the aluminum body, two-seat, Classic Insight worked too. But the user reported mileage numbers for the current Insight and Civic hybrids are ... modest compared to the Prius.

Bob Wilson