Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

[DeadPhish]

Originally Posted by 71Corolla

Thanks for the video, I found that very interesting. What I was not sure on is how hard the driver was pressing on the brake during full throttle. But if the cars brakes were not able to overpower the engine at full throttle, that concerns me that either the brakes are not powerful enough, or the software just doesn't allow it to happen.

On that note, I did NOT like the fact that when he pumped the brakes during full throttle, it essentially put the ABS system into a condition where the brakes no longer did anything. I consider that a VERY very bad bit of programming, why would Toyota do that? Am I missing something here? Did the engineers not think of it or consider this set of events important?

The VW system was far better, even at full throttle just slam on the brakes and the car stops very quickly. How did Toyota not see fit to implement such a system? And I have to reiterate, the failure of the brakes to overpower the engine is very concerning to me. This should never happen.

edit - it's not an ABS issue it's the fact that the brake booster runs out of vacuum when the engine is at full throttle.

I believe that soon every vehicle on the road here will have the smart pedal technology. That should put to rest all these issues.

[jburns]

Originally Posted by hampdenwireless

It may work in a Majority of cars but it certainly does not work in all of them. Many cars that do not have the braking power of the engine at full throttle.

Its amazing I survived my youth driving a 400 cubic inch V8, drum brakes and a mechanical throttle linkage.

[jburns]

Originally Posted by 71Corolla

Thanks for the video, I found that very interesting. What I was not sure on is how hard the driver was pressing on the brake during full throttle. But if the cars brakes were not able to overpower the engine at full throttle, that concerns me that either the brakes are not powerful enough, or the software just doesn't allow it to happen.

On that note, I did NOT like the fact that when he pumped the brakes during full throttle, it essentially put the ABS system into a condition where the brakes no longer did anything. I consider that a VERY very bad bit of programming, why would Toyota do that? Am I missing something here? Did the engineers not think of it or consider this set of events important?

The VW system was far better, even at full throttle just slam on the brakes and the car stops very quickly. How did Toyota not see fit to implement such a system? And I have to reiterate, the failure of the brakes to overpower the engine is very concerning to me. This should never happen.

edit - it's not an ABS issue it's the fact that the brake booster runs out of vacuum when the engine is at full throttle.

ABS does contribute the the problem in one way. We all know braking turns kinetic energy into heat energy. Prior to ABS if you totally locked the brakes and allowed the car to skid it transferred the heat energy to the tires. The brakes themselves would not heat up. Once the wheels lock you will stop quickly and the open throttle will have no effect This is where the common belief that brakes can always overcome throttle came from. It used to be correct Of course you needed clearance straight on front of you because that's the direction you are going to go.

The refusal of ABS to allow a wheel to lock makes the situation of a WOT much more difficult because all the heat goes to the brakes as the discs slide over the rotors continuously at maximum allowed pressure.

[Rybold]

Who is the genious who came up with push button start? I already put the key in, I already turned the key. What they heck do they need to add another step for?????????? Now I have to push a button? What's next??????? Where there be a second button? A third? What ever happened to just putting the key in and turning it?
(I think I am going to keep my Corolla for a loooooooooong time. It is VERY simple and basic, intuitive, and straight-forward, and at 120K miles right now, still drives like it was brand new. Also, it is VERY easy to shift into neutral, and back out of neutral while driving. The Prius doesn't allow the driver to do this (which compromises safety)).

A huge deal-breaker for me in the 2010 Prius is the fact that you can't just shift into neutral and back to drive. In my Corolla, I shift into neutral and back into drive constantly while driving, every time I come to a coast in a parking lot or at a red light. When I was test driving the Prius, I shifted into neutral when I had come to a coast while waiting for a stop light. When it turned green, I went to shift back into drive, but it wouldn't!!! The salesman said, "you have to come to a complete stop." In order to stop, the traffic behind me had to brake hard and stop also. I told the salesman that was a huge safety issue and a deal breaker for me. Sorry. I'll keep my 2004 Corolla until the Prius designers stop fooling around with fancy gadgets and put function before fashion. They can start with eliminating the "start" button and fixing the ability for the car to shift freely between neutral and drive.

I hope the CHP officers boycott Toyota. Why do I say such harsh words? Because SAFETY should ALWAYS come FIRST!
(by the way, in my Corolla, the hooks on the floor mats are so good, it takes me about a whole minute to unhook them when I clean them. Excellent job Toyota ... in 2004)

I want to buy a 2011 Prius. I desperately want one. BUT, I will NOT compromise safety! The ball is in Toyota's court.

[F8L]

Originally Posted by Rybold

Who is the genious who came up with push button start? I already put the key in, I already turned the key. What they heck do they need to add another step for?????????? Now I have to push a button? What's next??????? Where there be a second button? A third? What ever happened to just putting the key in and turning it?

Who actually inserts the key FOB into the slot to turn on their Prius? Since there is no ignition to turn, my keys stay in my pocket. The only time they ever leave my pocket is to unluck the front door to my apartment.

(I think I am going to keep my Corolla for a loooooooooong time. It is VERY simple and basic, intuitive, and straight-forward, and at 120K miles right now, still drives like it was brand new. Also, it is VERY easy to shift into neutral, and back out of neutral while driving. The Prius doesn't allow the driver to do this (which compromises safety)).

A huge deal-breaker for me in the 2010 Prius is the fact that you can't just shift into neutral and back to drive. In my Corolla, I shift into neutral and back into drive constantly while driving, every time I come to a coast in a parking lot or at a red light. When I was test driving the Prius, I shifted into neutral when I had come to a coast while waiting for a stop light. When it turned green, I went to shift back into drive, but it wouldn't!!! The salesman said, "you have to come to a complete stop." In order to stop, the traffic behind me had to brake hard and stop also. I told the salesman that was a huge safety issue and a deal breaker for me. Sorry. I'll keep my 2004 Corolla until the Prius designers stop fooling around with fancy gadgets and put function before fashion. They can start with eliminating the "start" button and fixing the ability for the car to shift freely between neutral and drive.

You don't want to put the Prius in neutral to try and achieve better milage. You don't gain anything in terms of fuel efficiency by doing so every time you come to a stop.

I hope the CHP officers boycott Toyota. Why do I say such harsh words? Because SAFETY should ALWAYS come FIRST!
(by the way, in my Corolla, the hooks on the floor mats are so good, it takes me about a whole minute to unhook them when I clean them. Excellent job Toyota ... in 2004)

I want to buy a 2011 Prius. I desperately want one. BUT, I will NOT compromise safety! The ball is in Toyota's court.

My 2005 Prius has floormat hooks and just like yours, the floormats are difficult to remove even when you WANT to. My roomate has a 2004 Corolla.

[Rybold]

Originally Posted by F8L

Who actually inserts the key FOB into the slot to turn on their Prius? Since there is no ignition to turn, my keys stay in my pocket. The only time they ever leave my pocket is to unluck the front door to my apartment.



You don't want to put the Prius in neutral to try and achieve better milage. You don't gain anything in terms of fuel efficiency by doing so every time you come to a stop.



My 2005 Prius has floormat hooks and just like yours, the floormats are difficult to remove even when you WANT to. My roomate has a 2004 Corolla.

Okay. You typed some good replies. I like it. How do you turn the engine off if the accelerator gets stuck then? Do you open the door and jump out? (hahahaha. Sorry, I had to make the joke on that one).
Serious question: If you want to cut the engine&motor while driving, if you push the start button will it turn off the engine/motor? (imagine the same scenario as the CHP driver in the Lexus). Has anyone tested this? (Yes, the first thing a driver should do is shift into neutral, but if the accelerator is stuck, you are eventually going to want to kill the engine also)

Anyhow, I like to coast. I love the feeling of a disengaged transmission and my car just rolling. I just love that feeling of knowing the car is rolling down the street with no engine or motor coupled to it. Remember the article about a year or two ago of the guy with the Honda Accord who used to coast down his driveway and down his street and down the road with the engine turned off? I don't turn my engine off, but I love to just coast when it's safe to do so. I wish the Prius allowed that.

(note: I just noticed from a Google image that the newer, current Corolla also allows the driver to effortlessly switch between drive and neutral while driving. Also note: there is no need for the driver to match rpms; the car's computer automatically shifts into the proper gear based on the car's speed - just shift from neutral back to drive and the computer does the math. Over the 120K miles that I've had my corolla, I've done this probably over 10,000 times, and never once have I had a problem)

[F8L]

Originally Posted by Rybold

Okay. You typed some good replies. I like it. How do you turn the engine off if the accelerator gets stuck then? Do you open the door and jump out? (hahahaha. Sorry, I had to make the joke on that one).

I was gonna answer but I couldn't quite articulate the procedure for tuck & roll so you minimize roadrash! Hahaha

Serious question: If you want to cut the engine&motor while driving, if you push the start button will it turn off the engine/motor? (imagine the same scenario as the CHP driver in the Lexus). Has anyone tested this?

I have had no reason to try that yet because a throttle sticking has only occured once in the entire I've been racing and modifying vehicles and that was on a 1972 Chevelle when the throttle linkage hung up on the air cleaner lid. Standing on the brakes brought my to a slow stop and thankfully the throttle released before I had to stick it in neutral. They didn't have computer controlled rev limiters like they do now.

Anyhow, I like to coast. I love the feeling of a disengaged transmission and my car just rolling. I just love that feeling of knowing the car is rolling down the street with no engine or motor coupled to it. Remember the article about a year or two ago of the guy with the Honda Accord who used to coast down his driveway and down his street and down the road with the engine turned off? I don't turn my engine off, but I love to just coast when it's safe to do so. I wish the Prius allowed that.

You can do the exact same thing in the Prius unless you are in warm up mode or have the AC/Heater on full blast. You can either put it in neutral OR simply let off the throttle then lightly reapply a little bit of pressure to disengage the regenerative braking and you will coast or as we call it, glide. You can go pretty damn far just gliding and after a few tries gliding becomes second nature and is easier than shifting in and out of neutral. I wish you were closer so I could take you for a ride and show you how it works. Then you could volunteer for my organization too.

[fuzzy1]

Originally Posted by Rybold

...
A huge deal-breaker for me in the 2010 Prius is the fact that you can't just shift into neutral and back to drive. In my Corolla, I shift into neutral and back into drive constantly while driving, every time I come to a coast in a parking lot or at a red light. When I was test driving the Prius, I shifted into neutral when I had come to a coast while waiting for a stop light. When it turned green, I went to shift back into drive, but it wouldn't!!! The salesman said, "you have to come to a complete stop." ...

? ? ? ? ? ?

My 2010 Prius must be broken. I did this a number of times, without problem and without stopping, before learning that it is a bad idea because of the risk of overspinning MG1 above 45 ?? mph.

Time to go back and do more tests.

As F8L points out, Neutral gains nothing on the Prius. Unlike a traditional transmission, mechanically there is nothing in the Prius that can be disengaged. The only disengagement is electrical, shutting off the motor and generator functions. If the wheels turn, MG1 must still spin as dead weight at whatever speed it is forced by the MG2 (wheel) and ICE shafts of the HSD.

Anyhow, I like to coast. I love the feeling of a disengaged transmission and my car just rolling. I just love that feeling of knowing the car is rolling down the street with no engine or motor coupled to it. Remember the article about a year or two ago of the guy with the Honda Accord who used to coast down his driveway and down his street and down the road with the engine turned off? I don't turn my engine off, but I love to just coast when it's safe to do so. I wish the Prius allowed that.

Engine on, this is a common element of intermediate hypermiling with manual transmissions. Engine off, advanced hypermiling. I regularly use the former in my older car.

If you want to eliminate Prius's small 'fake engine drag' when coasting, just press the gas pedal slightly until the bar on the HSI display vanishes. The desired point is sticky, it will snap to that condition if you get and stay close, so precision dexterity on the pedal is not required.

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by Rybold

Okay. You typed some good replies. I like it. How do you turn the engine off if the accelerator gets stuck then? <snip>

Did you read any of the previous posts? I've lost count of the number of posts that explain how to stop a Prius in an emergency. Any of the following will stop power to the drive wheels:

1) Press the Power button and hold for three seconds,

or

2) Move the shifter to N and hold for a second,

or

3) Press Park.

Any of those will work.

Tom

[qbee42]

Originally Posted by F8L

Who actually inserts the key FOB into the slot to turn on their Prius? Since there is no ignition to turn, my keys stay in my pocket. The only time they ever leave my pocket is to unluck the front door to my apartment.
<snip>

Not me. My Prius fob never comes out of my pocket, except when I put my keys away at night.

Tom