Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

[Jasonsprite]

Originally Posted by macmaster05

the solution is simple; ejection seat.

lol

[Son of Gloin]

Originally Posted by Rokeby

I have been closely following the various threads about "runaways" ...

I've never had reason to try to shut the car down when at highway
speeds. Well, now I do: I need to know/experience for myself in a
non-emergency situation what will happen.

I'll have to do a test, under simulated "runaway" conditions ...

My plan:
When there are few/no cars behind me; Get up to 60 mph, press hard on the go pedal to create an increasing RPM condition...
Shift into Neutral, see what happens.

Go back into Drive, and back up to 60 mph, again press hard on the go pedal to create an increasing RPM condition ... Hold the Power Button in, and see what happens, and how long it takes to take effect.

I think we all, Gen II and Gen III drivers alike, should consider trying
something like this ASAP, as finding safe conditions permits.

I'm not sure I'd want to try the "shifting into neutral" aspect of your proposed test -- no PARTICULAR reason ... I'm just a big wuss at heart! -- but I'm seriously considering doing the "Press-and-Hold-the-Power-Button" test with Mithril -- our '08 / Gen II -- in the near future. I might actually have a chance to do that as early as tomorrow. There's a nice, four-lane / divided stretch of US Highway 52 just a bit south of Lafayette that has VERY little traffic most of the time.

Just a few questions, though:

Has anyone heard of / does anyone know of any "SPECIAL" start-up procedures AFTER stopping the car by depressing the button in such a manner?

Or ... does the car just start up in the "NORMAL" manner AFTER it's been brought to a complete stop in this way?

[Bobsprius]

I don't know if there is anything special at all at startup . I would think it would be no different than if we were stopped, but not sure since it is not mentioned in the manual. I would also suggest if your going to try this, why not just try it in a large PARKING LOT, not on the highway, when it's considerable empty???
I was also thinking of doing the very same thing here, in such environment first. Not on the Highway....Just feel safer. On page 155 of the owners Manual it also states to Not place the car in "N" wtih the car moving. There are other references as well on that page that raise a concern, I think I would try the POWER BUTTON approach given those comments. I see you also have a V as I do, so I am going to try the POWER BUTTON option only. If that works I will be satisfied.

[bwilson4web]

POWER OFF WHILE RUNNING

Yesterday, before the article was published, I tried the 3 second push on our 2010 on a back street at 20 mph. My first impression was, "Why is it not going off?" and then it shutdown. So I pressed it a second time while the car was still rolling and it went into "AUX" mode ... but did not enable the engine.

The POWER button violates good human engineering principles by being "modal:" (1) short press turns car ON only if P is on and brake pressed, (2) two short presses without brake turns off car into AUX mode, (3) short press turns car OFF if in P, (4) long press turns car OFF.

Opinion

Tuning the car OFF or ON should be consistent and I don't care if it always takes 3 seconds or 1 second. Turning the car ON should only require one additional control, brake.

GOING INTO "N"

I use a ballistics glide, no pedal 'feathering,' when testing "Pulse and Glide" and there is a distinct delay, ~1+ seconds, before it actually goes into "N". It is easy to confuse hitting the mechanical stop with going into "N." For those interested in repeating this, I've used "N" at 65 mph without a problem.

Shifting into "N" is a safe operation with the exception of going down a hill under 46 mph with the engine off and then coasting to a much higher speed. In this rare case, it can induce potentially high voltages and excessive MG1 rpm beyond the design limits.

Opinion

Provide additional feedback when a gear selection is changed. A 'click', not a 'beep', would work for me. This allows gear changes without having to look down at the gear selector.

BRAKE REMOVES POWER

Application of the accelerator, brake and "D" is used for a forced charge. Other than trying to shave a 10th of a second off of a quick start, I've always felt uneasy that lifting off the brake would shoot forward.

Opinion

I've always felt it made more sense to have forced charge work when the car is in "P." This allows the parking pawl to provide a redundant block to vehicle motion. I have no problem with letting the engine idle increase when in "D", "B" or "R" and the brake is applied but no additional drive power.

REDESIGN ACCELERATOR PEDAL

This is a hard problem that may also require looking at the brake pedals too.

Opinion

Perhaps a lower 'dam' to prevent stuff from sliding up. Perhaps a 'bellows' to keep stuff from sliding behind the brake pedals. It is a hard problem.

Toyota has a hard row to hoe but it is interesting to contrast this with the other "Bell the Hybrid" effort. In this case, there was a well identified death. In the other, we have smoke and mirrors. There have been Prius-pedestrian deaths but none that rise to this level, yet.

Bob Wilson

[Son of Gloin]

In respons to Bobsprius' post above:

I seriously doubt there are any parking lots in the entire state of Indiana large enough / long enough to allow for the initial accelleration ... then simulating unwanted accelleration ... then holding the button for three seconds ... then waiting to see what happens.

Are there any parking lots that large / long anywhere?

But, in all seriousness, that strech of "52" is quite straight, generally level, and there are often NO vehicles to be seen in either direction ... or ... any vehicles seen might well be on the other side of the divide only. I ain't EVEN gonna' do this unless I have at least half-a-mile of nothing ahead of me or behind me ....

[Silver bullit]

Friends believe CHP officer did all he could to avoid crash

By Debbi Baker
Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. October 18, 2009
CHP Officer Mark Saylor died with family members in a wreck Aug. 28. (Courtesy family)


Mark Saylor, 45; daughter, Mahala, 13; and wife, Cleofe, 45, of Chula Vista were believed to be headed to Mahala's soccer practice when they died in a Santee crash. (Courtesy family)


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The constant second-guessing only added to their grief after losing their friend and fellow highway patrol officer and his family in one horrifying instant. Second-guessing from strangers over what Mark Saylor tried to do to stop a borrowed Lexus speeding down a highway out of his control at an estimated 120 mph.
Saylor and his wife, daughter and brother-in-law died in the fiery August crash where state Route 125 runs into Mission Gorge Road in Santee.
Did Saylor yank up on the accelerator? Did he try to shut off the engine?
“I'm positive he did everything he could do,” said Mike May, who worked alongside Saylor at the San Diego office of the California Highway Patrol.
May and CHP Officer John Concepcion spoke yesterday about their friend, providing the first detailed interviews about Saylor.
Both pointed to the 911 call that Saylor's brother-in-law made seconds before the car hurtled off the road, and remarked at how calm his voice was and how there seemed to be no panic in the car.
“I know his family had all their faith in him that he was doing what he could to stop that car,” May said.
Nearly two weeks after the Aug. 28 crash, a preliminary investigation said the floor mat in the 2009 Lexus ES 350 might have held the accelerator down.
Then, on Sept. 29, Toyota announced its largest recall in U.S. history, involving 3.8 million vehicles in seven makes and models. The company “strongly recommended” that driver's-side floor mats be removed.
Safety experts have said the cause may be harder to determine.
But the second-guessing began immediately, in anonymous online comments on news stories, around water coolers and on the radio.
May and Concepcion said they were hurt by such questioning about their colleague, someone they knew to be a well-trained and experienced high-speed driver. Complete article Friends believe CHP officer did all he could to avoid crash - SignOnSanDiego.com

[kgall]

Have the Toyota engineers or independent safety investigators figured out what "protects" non-Toyota cars from doing this? Or are they in fact subject to the same thing because of computer controls?
If other cars don't accellerate like this, there should be a straightforward fix. If they do, maybe there does need to be an industrywide standard shutoff system (like a panic button that would be hard to engage unless you really mean to push it--to prevent accidental shut-off. Or maybe a publicity campaign to make us aware that putting the car into neutral will save you--needs to be drilled into our consciousness--if that will work without losing braking power.

[fuzzy1]

I'd love to know if you lose all braking when you kill the engine. Please post what happens if you do this test.

The Prius brake booster is independent of the ignition even being turned on. Just open the door in the morning and we hear the noise of the vacuum pump firing up.

Separately, other threads have described the Prius power brakes as being similar to all other power brake systems. When no power assist is available, the brake pedal still pushes directly on the master cylinder to provide hydraulic pressure. Though the driver will have to push much harder, the brakes still function. For normal able-bodied adults, the surprise factor is a bigger issue than the required muscle power.

The first two cars I drove would stall without warning, and immediately lose all power assist. I quickly learned to steer and stop them by pure muscle power alone, and it wasn't intolerable. Car #3 had its brake booster gradually fail, and it was never a hazard. But it was a light car, so it had less need power assist than any modern car.

I've never experienced power boost failure on a car with ABS, so don't know what additional complications that can bring.

... The question remains, how many brake pulses or how long does the system provide power assisted braking. I think/hope that even after discharge of the Backup Unit there is still unassisted braking.

I'm going to do a test for my own peace of mind... I just have to find the time/conditions.

On a GenIII, a real test of unassisted braking may not be possible without pulling a fuse or otherwise cutting power to the vacuum booster.

[direstraits71]

Originally Posted by Patrick Wong

Regarding the idea of gaining experience shifting into N, depressing the POWER button while underway, etc., I think this is all good. However, shifting into N is not so easy and simple.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in these threads is the ability to shift to neutral by pressing the Park button. Wouldn't this be quicker and respond instantly with a single press? All I've read here says it would.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by Son of Gloin

. . .
I seriously doubt there are any parking lots in the entire state of Indiana large enough / long enough to allow for the initial accelleration ... then simulating unwanted accelleration ... then holding the button for three seconds ... then waiting to see what happens.
. . .

Start with a small experiment, 20-25 mph, and try to turn it off. There is always time to add speed or other operations. Small experiments make small mistakes.

Bob Wilson