Plug-ins do they make sense?

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DonDNH @ May 4 2006, 04:21 PM) [snapback]249951[/snapback]</div>

That's the logic that got me to build an all-electric home in 1981. The government is still trying to get power plants to clean up their act.
[/b]

While electric power in the US is far cleaner than gasoline production and consumption... we do still have a long way to go. The folks who say we should not be persuing EVs because of the pollution involved in electricity production are aiming their negative energy at the wrong target. Let's keep working toward cleaner electricity, and we'll be in great shape. 100% domestic energy is a worthy goal. While we continue to burn gasoline, we'll never be energy independent in the US.

[kirbinster]

The point I was trying to make was purely an economic one based on the high cost of electricity in many regions. In my case plug-ins make sense as I have a solar PV system on my roof that generates about 12,000 KWH per year.

[richard schumacher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 09:35 AM) [snapback]250195[/snapback]</div>

The point I was trying to make was purely an economic one based on the high cost of electricity in many regions. In my case plug-ins make sense as I have a solar PV system on my roof that generates about 12,000 KWH per year.
[/b]

Umm, it sounds like you're still missing the point: recharging a car's battery using gasoline is about 1/3 as efficient as plugging it into the wall. The difference in efficiency, which exists inside the car, overcomes the lower cost of energy in gasoline. If it cost you X cents to recharge a battery using electricity purchased from a utility, it would cost you roughly 2X cents worth of gasoline.

But if you were only concerned about your direct costs you would not have installed a Solar PV system. A system that big probably cost you something like $20,000? Ignoring interest or the return you might have made investing that sum, it will take at least ten years to pay for itself. Including interest/returns makes the payback time more like 20 years.

I'm looking forward to buying a plugin hybrid myself to further reduce air pollution and consumption of fossil fuels, not to reduce my costs.

[kirbinster]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ May 5 2006, 11:01 AM) [snapback]250218[/snapback]</div>

Umm, it sounds like you're still missing the point: recharging a car's battery using gasoline is about 1/3 as efficient as plugging it into the wall. The difference in efficiency, which exists inside the car, overcomes the lower cost of energy in gasoline. If it cost you X cents to recharge a battery using electricity purchased from a utility, it would cost you roughly 2X cents worth of gasoline.

But if you were only concerned about your direct costs you would not have installed a Solar PV system. A system that big probably cost you something like $20,000? Ignoring interest or the return you might have made investing that sum, it will take at least ten years to pay for itself. Including interest/returns makes the payback time more like 20 years.

I'm looking forward to buying a plugin hybrid myself to further reduce air pollution and consumption of fossil fuels, not to reduce my costs.
[/b]

No I don't think I am missing the point. I fully understand what you are saying as far as the efficiency (or lack of it) in converting gasoline to electricity and back to motive power. I was talking about just the dollar cost of buying electricity for most people.

You are right, and wrong, about the solar system. You cost estimate is fairly close to what the system cost net of rebates which were running 70% of system cost when I installed it. However, the payback on the system is just under 4 years -- which is a good return on investment. What you fail to factor in is the high cost of power here and the value or the srecs. In NJ there is an active markets for the srecs which represent the legal rights to claim you produce renewable energy. The utilities must pay a large fine to the state for missing their requirements which they don't even come close to. Thus, I generate 12 srecs a year and sell them for about $250 a unit, which contributes another $3,000 a year to the system's return. Just the srecs will yield me $12,000 in those four years. Plus, the value of those srecs will likely increase in 18 months.

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 08:24 AM) [snapback]250226[/snapback]</div>

I was talking about just the dollar cost of buying electricity for most people.[/b]

Even if electricity cost you three or four times MORE than you are paying now, it will still make economic sense to use electricity instead of gasoline whenever possible. Did that point get across in any of my ramblings? I won't go into all the other stuff regarding domestic energy supplies, and being able to control the source and price. The bottom line (for your particular question) is that even at well above the curren highest price of electricity, it is a cheaper transportation fuel than is gasoline.

[EricGo]

The DOE says that electricity costs on average 9.74 cents in 2005.

The Prius uses 0.15 - 0.20 kWh/mile. Let's use high numbers:

0.2 kWh/mile * 10 cents/kWh = 2 cents per mile.

For most Prius owners, gasoline is 5 - 6 cents per mile.

---
Would you mind providing a detailed post regarding your solar array ? I would love to hear about it, as I am sure many other people here at PC.

Cheers -- Eric

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ May 5 2006, 08:01 AM) [snapback]250218[/snapback]</div>

But if you were only concerned about your direct costs you would not have installed a Solar PV system. A system that big probably cost you something like $20,000? Ignoring interest or the return you might have made investing that sum, it will take at least ten years to pay for itself. Including interest/returns makes the payback time more like 20 years.[/b]

This is a common misperception. The misconception is based on sevearl flawed assumptions. It assumes electricity will stay the same price over time, and it assumes that your "other investments" will do way better than the stock market has averaged. Adding PV increases the value of your home while at the same time paying you back. PV on the roof can lower the load on your AC system as it keeps the sun off the tiles. Installing PV is a guaranteed return on investment that will only increase as energy prices continue to rise. In my case, my payback came the very day I turned my system on. My average monthy electricity bill savings is about $70 - and the principal and interest on the loan I took out to install the system is LESS than $70/month. In two years, the loan will be paid off, and the system will then keep producing for MANY more years for FREE. Any othe question on that???

Note: I'm biased as well as at least mildly educated in this stuff. I'm now a sales rap for a PV installation company... though my system was installed before I was a rep, and at market prices.

[kirbinster]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 5 2006, 11:54 AM) [snapback]250243[/snapback]</div>

The DOE says that electricity costs on average 9.74 cents in 2005.

The Prius uses 0.15 - 0.20 kWh/mile. Let's use high numbers:

0.2 kWh/mile * 10 cents/kWh = 2 cents per mile.

For most Prius owners, gasoline is 5 - 6 cents per mile.

---
Would you mind providing a detailed post regarding your solar array ? I would love to hear about it, as I am sure many other people here at PC.

Cheers -- Eric
[/b]

Eric I have posted some info before, but will do it again here. Don't know where you are located, but if you are anywhere near Northern NJ I would be glad to show you the system.

My system is comprised of 54 Sharp 185watt solar panels. They are connected to three Sunnyboy 2500U and one Sunnyboy 1100U inverters. The inverters take the DC power from the panels and convert it to a/c and sync with utitlity company voltage and frequency. The power then ties directly into my main breaker panel. When I produce more than I am using it flows out onto the grid for others to use - while spinning my meter backwards to give me credit for the power. Anyone in NJ (and a few other states) that has a southern facing roof free of shading is crazy to not install such a system. With the rebates, srec credit and savings on electricity it is an economic no brainer. If you are a tree hugger there is even more reason to do it

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 5 2006, 08:54 AM) [snapback]250243[/snapback]</div>

The DOE says that electricity costs on average 9.74 cents in 2005.

The Prius uses 0.15 - 0.20 kWh/mile. Let's use high numbers:

0.2 kWh/mile * 10 cents/kWh = 2 cents per mile.

For most Prius owners, gasoline is 5 - 6 cents per mile.[/b]

Well, there you go. Real numbers intead of just my ramblings.

Would you mind providing a detailed post regarding your solar array ? I would love to hear about it, as I am sure many other people here at PC.
[/b]

All that's needed is to follow my EV link in my sig, and choose the SOLAR link on the left.

[EricGo]

Darrell, I assure you I have read your website more than once.

Thanks!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kirbinster @ May 5 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]250253[/snapback]</div>

Eric I have posted some info before, but will do it again here. Don't know where you are located, but if you are anywhere near Northern NJ I would be glad to show you the system.

My system is comprised of 54 Sharp 185watt solar panels. They are connected to three Sunnyboy 2500U and one Sunnyboy 1100U inverters. The inverters take the DC power from the panels and convert it to a/c and sync with utitlity company voltage and frequency. The power then ties directly into my main breaker panel. When I produce more than I am using it flows out onto the grid for others to use - while spinning my meter backwards to give me credit for the power. Anyone in NJ (and a few other states) that has a southern facing roof free of shading is crazy to not install such a system. With the rebates, srec credit and savings on electricity it is an economic no brainer. If you are a tree hugger there is even more reason to do it
[/b]

I remember now ..

Can you take me through the money part of it ? H/W, installation cost, fed and state rebates ? I know my state of NM will allow 1 kWh of energy returned to the grid to offset 1 kWh of energy used. Not as generous as CA (and apparently NJ), but OK IMO.

I am as excited by home solar today, as I was about the Prius 4 years ago. A large array, and a couple of hybrid electrical bicycles seems like a brilliant proposition. If not today, I'd guess in the pretty near future.