Hydrogen powered BMW's

[bluntguy]

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage5347.html

BMW may be on the verge of launching a new range of petrol-electric models powered by new hybrid technology developed jointly with General Motors and DaimlerChrysler, but that hasn’t stopped the German car giant announcing a joint-venture fuel distribution network with petroleum producer Total to promote the next big step in alternative vehicle power: hydrogen.
BMW last week announced it has signed an agreement with Total to "co-operate closely in future in promoting hydrogen as a source of energy in road traffic".

In practice, the deal will see Total set up and operate three hydrogen filling stations in Europe by the end of 2007 to support "the introduction of BMW hydrogen cars into the market".

The arrangement is an extension of the Clean Energy Partnership (CEP) Berlin Initiative, which is supported by the German federal government.

Under the CEP, in March this year Total opened a public filling station in Berlin that offers both conventional fuels and hydrogen, replacing the test pilot station Total had operated since 2002.

A second hydrogen station will be opened near BMW’s Research and Innovation Centre in Detmoldstrasse, Munich, by the end of 2006. The location of a third hydrogen outlet will be announced within weeks.

For its part, BMW has committed to releasing its first hydrogen-powered vehicle by mid-2008, based on its 7 Series flagship sedan, and is reported to have invested well over a billion dollars over the past 25 years to develop hydrogen combustion technology.

Last week’s announcement is further tangible evidence the German maker intends to go it alone on hydrogen-powered internal combustion engine technology at a time when many of its rivals – including GM and DC – have signaled their intention to develop fuel cell-powered vehicles that use hydrogen to produce electricity to power electric motors.

Most industry observers believe hydrogen cars will not be widely available until at least 2015. In the meantime, BMW’s collaboration with GM and DC will allow BMW to offer hybrid-powered models, which most analysts agree will be an interim step on the way to zero-emission cars powered solely by renewable resources like hydrogen.

Professor Burkhard Göschel, the BMW board member for development and purchasing who is on record as saying "A Rolls(-Royce) would be an ideal hydrogen car", said last week:

"Parallel to the establishment of the appropriate hydrogen infrastructure, the BMW Group is consistently promoting the introduction of hydrogen cars.

"Currently BMW is in a process of series development, and in less than two years we will be presenting a BMW 7 Series Hydrogen Car to the public."

Prof Göschel was integral in the development of BMW first hydrogen car, the 750hL, the hydrogen-powered Mini concept revealed at the 2001 Frankfurt show, the record-breaking H2R Record Car and the current 745h, whose 4.4-litre V8 can run on either petrol or hydrogen.

"As a leading company in processing and marketing petroleum products in Europe, Total also wishes to play a leading role in the industrial and technical development of hydrogen as a fuel," said Total’s director general for refinery operations and marketing, Michel Bénézit.

"As a source of energy and from the perspective of environmental care, hydrogen offers clear benefits already proven and substantiated in practice."

Combustion engines versus fuel cells
CAR companies agree that hydrogen power represents the future for the automobile - once a safe method of storing and distributing the zero-emission fuel is in place.

But BMW is the only major car-maker heading down the hydrogen-fuelled internal combustion engine route, and it says it’s doing it not only for the environment - but for us.

GM has teamed up with Toyota, and Ford with DaimlerChrysler, to develop fuel cell technology, and the world’s top four car-makers argue the electric motors of fuel-cell vehicles are quieter than combustion engines, offer better acceleration at low speeds, are less expensive to maintain and offer twice the energy efficiency of a combustion engine.

BMW says using the same zero-emission hydrogen fuel to power a modified version of the internal combustion engine that’s powered cars for more than a century is not only cheaper, but has so far delivered better results in terms of performance.

True to its performance image, BMW says its customers won’t accept the poor high-speed performance of fuel cell vehicles, nor the sound they produce, which has been described by some as akin to a vacuum cleaner.

While the BMW/Total deal proves the hydrogen-powered motor car is imminent, two such vastly different ways of employing the alternative fuel could have serious ramifications for the losing bidder and its suppliers in terms of future technology developments.

According to former BMW chairman Joachim Milberg: "History will decide, but my opinion is that customers will like combustion engines more than fuel cells."

[bsd43]

I'll buy a H2 powered car when they figure out a way to extract H2 cheaply without burning natural gas.

[auricchio]

Please provide a list of hydrogen filling stations...

[Tideland Prius]

BMW has been working on hydrogens for a long time and have been openly publicizing it. Their development is on a hydrogen ICE. For the same reason Honda went with IMA, hydrogen ICE is cheaper to build and requires less R&D. However, Hydrogen Hybrids (mostly fuel cells atm) will still get better range, power and efficiency than regular hydrogen powered ICE.

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 6 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]266941[/snapback]</div>

There development is on a hydrogen ICE. [/b]

I'm confused. Everybody can do H2 ICE. They HAVE done H2 ICE. Except for finding the fuel and storing it in the vehicle, there's not much to it! Between gasoline and CNG ICE... we've pretty much been there, done that. No rocket science to having a combustible material make an ICE run.

I heard a Ford spokesperson with my own two ears say that they could have an H2 ICE in the dealerships in under one year if they had to. That was three years ago. The reason they were NOT going to do that? No infrastructure.

If we're all waiting around for H2 ICE... we already have it. What we don't have is a need... or filling stations.

[GrepTar]

Is burning H2 in an ICE even zero emissions? Unless they are providing pure O2 also, N from the atmosphere is going to be converted to NOx, right? Unless maybe the burn temperatures are lower and that doesn't happen at the lower temperatures.

[Tideland Prius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 6 2006, 10:13 PM) [snapback]267109[/snapback]</div>

I'm confused. Everybody can do H2 ICE. They HAVE done H2 ICE. Except for finding the fuel and storing it in the vehicle, there's not much to it! Between gasoline and CNG ICE... we've pretty much been there, done that. No rocket science to having a combustible material make an ICE run.

I heard a Ford spokesperson with my own two ears say that they could have an H2 ICE in the dealerships in under one year if they had to. That was three years ago. The reason they were NOT going to do that? No infrastructure.

If we're all waiting around for H2 ICE... we already have it. What we don't have is a need... or filling stations.
[/b]

Well I know BMW and Ford are the only two that are working on hydrogen ICE. The rest seem to be on FC.. Ford too. There are 5 FC Focuses in my area.

[c4]

The big problem with fuel cells that nobody seems to be worrying about is that platinum is even more scarce than petroleum: there's not enough platinum on the entire planet to make all the catalysts required.. A conservative estimate is that there's probably only enough platinum on the earth to make fuel cells for about 25% of the vehicles in the world today (and that's excluding all the other uses for platinum we currently have- ie, if we used up all the platinum for vehicle fuel cells, there'd be none left for things like medical drug production, which I would argue is a far better use for our limited platinum reserves). Although new developments are continually reducing the amount of platinum required per fuel cell, as of today, they still require enough that even if we had hydrogen fueling infrastructure available, and a clean way of producing the hydrogen (vs hydrocarbon cracking), fuel cell vehicles would still be impractical for this reason.

An H2 ICE on the other hand does not require any sort of catalyst- it just burns the hydrogen directly, which might not be very efficient, but it is clean (burning H2 produces only H2O and heat, and nothing else) and based on proven technology.

[GrepTar]

From: http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/feb02...p/fillerup.html

When hydrogen is burned with air in an internal combustion engine, some nitrogen oxides are formed, but fewer than the pollutants generated by fossil fuels, according to the Department of Energy's Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Clearinghouse in Merrifield, Va.

[darelldd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c4 @ Jun 7 2006, 10:49 AM) [snapback]267329[/snapback]</div>

An H2 ICE on the other hand does not require any sort of catalyst- it just burns the hydrogen directly, which might not be very efficient, but it is clean (burning H2 produces only H2O and heat, and nothing else) and based on proven technology.
[/b]

As others have pointed out, there IS some pollution created with H2 combustion in the atmosphere. Cleaner than gasoline, certainly, but still not "zero." And with the amount of energy required to produce H2, the process can get less desirable. And I'll keep saying this until I'm blue: If we're going to create H2 ICE where the H2 comes from NG... let's skip the expensive middleman, and burn CNG directly!

A FCV and a BEV are two zero-emission vehicles. NO tailpipe emissins. What's left is to consider is the upstream pollution/costs. Since a FCV requires 3-4X the electricity of a BEV, whatever those pollution/costs are, will be 3-4x as much for FCV as for BEVs