PBS Cars of the future

terkar · 05-20-2004, 11:26 AM

Hope some of you were able to catch the PBS channel last night. Alan Alda did a piece on the Hybrid - Fuel Cells and Hydrogen cars. Very well done. Good things to say about the Prius. Seems the Detroit crowd has given up on an all battery car, and is putting all their effort into the fuel cell or Hydrogen car.
10 years away for the average driver or so they say - seems to me it will be at least 20 years.
Was a great bit about Iceland - they are really focusing on Hydrogen and how it makes sense for them since they can produce electricity so cheaply. Showed a Hydrogen gas station that is ready to go and produces its own hydrogen on site. Seems Iceland can and will produce all their hydrogen on site thus eliminating all fuel trucks from the roads.

Hybred · 05-20-2004, 11:37 AM

I saw the Alda special on Future Cars last night and I must say I wasn't terribly impressed (especially when the Big Three were almost exclusively touting diesel as their near term commitment) UNTIL the older gentleman (who invented Nickel metal hydride batteries) spoke about his solid state hydrogen fuel cell that could pack an energy density multiple times (?) that of the compressed gas version. The other tidbit of interesting information about this modded prius was the fact that it is still a hybrid, which seems totally plausible since a fuel cell has a warm up period that I doubt many would want to wait on. Now then I guess it's a matter of producing the liquid hydrogen, distribution...If you can get your hot hands on the last issue of Scientific American they break down the current pros and cons of a hydrogen economy and IMHO the net effects are deleterious when compared to the analysis of hybrid technology.

Jerry P · 05-20-2004, 03:18 PM

I really enjoyed that show. It was interesting to see Alda pressure the technical director of Toyota about why they are not producing more hybrid cars since they are so great. He seemed to say thet people are not really ready to change the criteria they use to buy a car - namely horsepower vs. fuel efficiency. The all-electric sports car with a 0-60 time of 4 sec. and a range of 300 miles was neat.
The part on Iceland was great. Here is a people out to make the best use of what resources they have in an efficient manner. A parallel could be drawn to the US if we were only to harness the productivity of our vast farmland to produce ethanol for vehicle fuel. Maybe it's just not high-tech enough to gain political attention, or Exxon-Mobil and Shell just can't bear to share the wealth with someone like Cargill or Archer-Daniels Midland. C'mon John Kerry - start a movement to help the American farmer and drivers by promoting ethanol!

krooster1234 · 05-20-2004, 04:21 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I can't remember where I heard this, but I think making ethanol from corn ends up being vastly more expensive than gasoline currently is. So it's not just a matter of the oil companies not wanting to share the market, it's just a matter of people buying whatever fuel is cheapest.

Although, I would pay at least a slight premium to use ethanol made from corn because it's at least sustainable....

Plus, I think I heard somewhere that producing ethanol in the quantities that gasoline is currently produced would be impractical.

DaveinOlyWA · 05-20-2004, 07:30 PM

ethanol is more expensive but more importantly, it just dont have the punch. that fact makes it unrealistic in any kind of mass market venture. the maintainence would be extreme.

ethanol has less than half the calories of gasoline creating a major problem with maintaining any kind of long term engine performance.

jchu · 05-20-2004, 09:01 PM

I recall an article in Scientific America a few years ago that did a breakdown on Ethanol from corn production. Irregardless of the cost, the energy balance was a net negative for ethanol. The primary benefit of Ethanol blending is reduced emissions rather than cost. I had hoped that the article was archived on the SciAm Website but couldn't find it.

Jon

bookrats · 05-21-2004, 01:02 PM

I thought John1701a uses an ethanol (or some alternative) fuel mixture in his Prius.

xlarimer · 05-21-2004, 02:21 PM

I think hydrogen fuel is bogus for us to be spending large sums of money on when they haven't figured out the technology yet for mass vehicle distribution, but I did like the stand alone refilling stations that make their own fuel being supplied with power and water. I have to say, that that is pretty darn cool.

The prius couple with the solid hydrogen storage unit seems a little like snake oil to me. I'm having trouble putting my mind around that one.

Just my 2 cents. I did like the program though.

And I think Alan Alda pressured the Toyota guy on why there were putting out commercials sporting speed and power instead of fuel economy and environmental concerns. The queston was why didn't they make the Prius and say well, this is the future, there are no other options for you because we have decided this is the car for you. Toyota guy should have answered that people want options and that is what Toyota is giving them. This technology or a form of it will end up eventually in all the models. He wasn't a good PR person for them I think.

richard schumacher · 05-21-2004, 02:52 PM

Ovshinsky is no flake. He invented the amorphous silicon photovoltaic cell and significant improvements to NiMH batteries such as those used in our Prii. If he says he's got a new high-density storage system for hydrogen then he probably does. (Note that he does not claim to have some solid form of pure hydrogen; metallic hydrogen is possible but no human has yet made or seen any.)

DaveinOlyWA · 05-21-2004, 03:39 PM

its not snake oil, just very new technology that does have a few bugs to work out which wont be a problem, then they have to convince the public the idea will work which will be a huge problem as demostrated by some on this forum. the fact that naysayers will have the billion dollar advertising engine of the oil companies behind them will make this new hydrogen storage technology all that much harder to accept.

05-20-2004, 11:26 AM	#1
terkar Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hendersonville, NC Posts: 100 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	PBS Cars of the future Hope some of you were able to catch the PBS channel last night. Alan Alda did a piece on the Hybrid - Fuel Cells and Hydrogen cars. Very well done. Good things to say about the Prius. Seems the Detroit crowd has given up on an all battery car, and is putting all their effort into the fuel cell or Hydrogen car. 10 years away for the average driver or so they say - seems to me it will be at least 20 years. Was a great bit about Iceland - they are really focusing on Hydrogen and how it makes sense for them since they can produce electricity so cheaply. Showed a Hydrogen gas station that is ready to go and produces its own hydrogen on site. Seems Iceland can and will produce all their hydrogen on site thus eliminating all fuel trucks from the roads.

05-20-2004, 03:18 PM	#3
Jerry P Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Waterford, PA Posts: 291 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #7 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I really enjoyed that show. It was interesting to see Alda pressure the technical director of Toyota about why they are not producing more hybrid cars since they are so great. He seemed to say thet people are not really ready to change the criteria they use to buy a car - namely horsepower vs. fuel efficiency. The all-electric sports car with a 0-60 time of 4 sec. and a range of 300 miles was neat. The part on Iceland was great. Here is a people out to make the best use of what resources they have in an efficient manner. A parallel could be drawn to the US if we were only to harness the productivity of our vast farmland to produce ethanol for vehicle fuel. Maybe it's just not high-tech enough to gain political attention, or Exxon-Mobil and Shell just can't bear to share the wealth with someone like Cargill or Archer-Daniels Midland. C'mon John Kerry - start a movement to help the American farmer and drivers by promoting ethanol! __________________ Warrior in the Battle for American Energy Independence

05-21-2004, 02:21 PM	#8
xlarimer Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: berkeley, california Posts: 135 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I think hydrogen fuel is bogus for us to be spending large sums of money on when they haven't figured out the technology yet for mass vehicle distribution, but I did like the stand alone refilling stations that make their own fuel being supplied with power and water. I have to say, that that is pretty darn cool. The prius couple with the solid hydrogen storage unit seems a little like snake oil to me. I'm having trouble putting my mind around that one. Just my 2 cents. I did like the program though. And I think Alan Alda pressured the Toyota guy on why there were putting out commercials sporting speed and power instead of fuel economy and environmental concerns. The queston was why didn't they make the Prius and say well, this is the future, there are no other options for you because we have decided this is the car for you. Toyota guy should have answered that people want options and that is what Toyota is giving them. This technology or a form of it will end up eventually in all the models. He wasn't a good PR person for them I think. __________________ Xo Larimer 06 White 07

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05-20-2004, 11:37 AM	#2
Hybred Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 28 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I saw the Alda special on Future Cars last night and I must say I wasn't terribly impressed (especially when the Big Three were almost exclusively touting diesel as their near term commitment) UNTIL the older gentleman (who invented Nickel metal hydride batteries) spoke about his solid state hydrogen fuel cell that could pack an energy density multiple times (?) that of the compressed gas version. The other tidbit of interesting information about this modded prius was the fact that it is still a hybrid, which seems totally plausible since a fuel cell has a warm up period that I doubt many would want to wait on. Now then I guess it's a matter of producing the liquid hydrogen, distribution...If you can get your hot hands on the last issue of Scientific American they break down the current pros and cons of a hydrogen economy and IMHO the net effects are deleterious when compared to the analysis of hybrid technology.

05-20-2004, 04:21 PM	#4
krooster1234 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Glenview, IL Posts: 72 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Correct me if I'm wrong, since I can't remember where I heard this, but I think making ethanol from corn ends up being vastly more expensive than gasoline currently is. So it's not just a matter of the oil companies not wanting to share the market, it's just a matter of people buying whatever fuel is cheapest. Although, I would pay at least a slight premium to use ethanol made from corn because it's at least sustainable.... Plus, I think I heard somewhere that producing ethanol in the quantities that gasoline is currently produced would be impractical.

05-20-2004, 07:30 PM	#5
DaveinOlyWA Opps !! I Did it Again!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 9,541 My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #4 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 4	ethanol is more expensive but more importantly, it just dont have the punch. that fact makes it unrealistic in any kind of mass market venture. the maintainence would be extreme. ethanol has less than half the calories of gasoline creating a major problem with maintaining any kind of long term engine performance.

05-20-2004, 09:01 PM	#6
jchu Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Nampa, ID Posts: 1,063 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I recall an article in Scientific America a few years ago that did a breakdown on Ethanol from corn production. Irregardless of the cost, the energy balance was a net negative for ethanol. The primary benefit of Ethanol blending is reduced emissions rather than cost. I had hoped that the article was archived on the SciAm Website but couldn't find it. Jon

05-21-2004, 01:02 PM	#7
bookrats Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,843 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I thought John1701a uses an ethanol (or some alternative) fuel mixture in his Prius.

05-21-2004, 02:52 PM	#9
richard schumacher nacreous lacquer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4,096 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #6 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Ovshinsky is no flake. He invented the amorphous silicon photovoltaic cell and significant improvements to NiMH batteries such as those used in our Prii. If he says he's got a new high-density storage system for hydrogen then he probably does. (Note that he does not claim to have some solid form of pure hydrogen; metallic hydrogen is possible but no human has yet made or seen any.)

05-21-2004, 03:39 PM	#10
DaveinOlyWA Opps !! I Did it Again!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Puget Sound, WA Posts: 9,541 My Car: 2006 Prius Package: #4 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 4	its not snake oil, just very new technology that does have a few bugs to work out which wont be a problem, then they have to convince the public the idea will work which will be a huge problem as demostrated by some on this forum. the fact that naysayers will have the billion dollar advertising engine of the oil companies behind them will make this new hydrogen storage technology all that much harder to accept.