GM: Hybrid cars make no sense

[jkash]

A new article from CNN Money today. Interesting reading.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/d...brids/index.htm

Jeff

[Danny]

I have a feeling once they see the sales figures for the Lexus RX hybrid, they'll sing a different tune.

They're also just jealous because they can't figure out how to make a hybrid engine without selling at a loss. No offense to American engineers, but the Japanese have us pegged as far as engine engineering.

The Big 3 still insist that the Prius sells at a loss of $5,000 per car.

[efusco]

It's an interesting article. They're still spewing the stuff about how the Prius and similar can't be profitable--seem to be in denial. There are about 3 seperate 'concessions' that Toyota's kicking their asses with the Prius while using double speak to defend themselves. He can't seem to make the connection that there is more to the equasion for a lot of people than whether the improved fuel efficiency can compensate for the higher price. I long ago accepted that I could, if I wanted, get a cheaper car that's nearly as fuel efficient. He can't seem to see that it doesn't all boil down to dollars and cents. If it did then no one would drive luxury cars either--they make no sense in a dollars and cents way either.

He's right that Toyota will have to buff their profit margins with hybrid trucks and SUVs....but so what? He doesn't get it that real people care about the environment, they car about improved technology, they care about not burning fossil fuels. It's a 'big picture' issue and all he seems to want to look at is the bottom line. Just plain short sighted--or intentionally wearing blinders.
--evan

[Danny]

I contend that the universal appeal of the Prius is not in it's environmental friendliness. Instead, it's appeal lies in the fact that you get so much for so little, and you are offered things that you would normally have to buy at least a $30k+ car to get.

Sure, environmental friendliness is great, but for many it's simply icing on the cake. The average consumer will say to his friend, come look at my Smart Entry system or my Navigation system with Bluetooth capability and voice recognition - Not, "Hey, come look at my tailpipes - don't see the emissions, do you??"

People love toys and little extras - expecially when they're cheap and in a car that is very comparable to one they were probably also looking at buying - the Camry.

[tag]

....People love toys and little extras - expecially when they're cheap....

That's for sure. I mean, compare the 325i, for example; $700 extra just for HID headlamps.

[PriusDreamer]

To be honest, Toyota may not really be making a profit on each Prius as they report. There are many ways to skin a fiscal cat. The massive research and development of the Prius (don't forget, Toyota literally did every piece of development and makes every component in house to better control both quality and the resulting patents) isn't necessarily factored into to the profit calculation. This is very complicated accounting with no control on Toyota or incentive on their part to say "hey we lose on every one" but are planning for future sales of the Hybrid Technology.

[Jerry P]

I expect within the next 6 months GM will announce an agreement with Toyota similar to the one announced by Nissan - that they will be purchasing Toyota HSD systems to put in their vehicles. GM missed a BIG boat here, and in the next 10 years it will cost them the title of world's largest car company. It is sad to say, but American car companies are just not cutting it anymore, and I doubt if Chrysler will survive intact and Ford will be much less than it is now. You can blame it on any number of factors, but lack of drive-train innovation will be the killer. Fancy tech 'gadgets' like DVD navigation and digital displays and cool cup holders do NOT make a car more efficient or significantly better to drive. It's what drives the whole vehicle that determines it's level of technology - the heart is under the hood! GM , Ford, and Chrysler are just now trying to wow consumers with variable valve timing - something Toyota and Honda perfected 5 years ago. The taste of dust will be in the mouths of American car executives for a LONG time to come.

[Wolfman]

The reality is that the domestics are too focused on the profit of serial number 0000001 as it rolls off the lot. Toyota freely admitted that they were selling the first Prius at a loss. It took them untill late 2003 to recoup the R&D and turn a profit. The domestics simply won't stand for that kind of long term investment. That CEO absolutely cannot live without that 50 billion dollar bonus every year. Untill their core values change at the top, they will continue to slowly die - and they will deserve the deaths that they are headed for.

[cybele]

I posted this on the YG back in November, but it did not stir any discussion. But it seems to fit in here.

There was a little article in the December issue of Discover Magazine. It was just a little sidebar that talked about the environmental impact of
automobiles and their entire footprint (manufacturing/use/consumption).

The little graph is reproduced poorly on the website, but if someone is really interested, I'll scan it.

Basically, the article said, "A near-future fuel-cell car would not be much cleaner than a well-designed battery-gasoline hybrid." because "although fuel-cell vehicles would produce zero greenhouse-gas emissions during use, the extraction and refinement of hydrogen fuel would release three to five times as much carbon into the air as is released in procuring and refining gasoline and diesel."

http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-03/rd/d...ogen-fuel-cell/

I had often wondered about the ecological impact of the creation of the hydrogen for this "hydrogen future." I'm curious to see the entire study as well.

[cybele]

From The Village Voice
Cleaning Up: Bush's Pals, an Oligarch, and a Siberian Pollution Factory Hydrogen's Dirty Details
by Mark Baard
January 6th, 2004 9:30 AM

The so-called hydrogen economy will be a boon for the mining industry. The clean-energy future that many environmentalists have dreamed of has been turned over to the coal industry and a notoriously dirty Siberian mining company run by Russian oligarch Vladimir Potanin. A deal personally smoothed over by Bush has given Norilsk Nickel, one of the world's worst polluters, a toehold on American soil—and a major stake in the hydrogen economy. ... more