Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

[KTPhil]

"CNW Marketing Research Inc." is a well-known and little-respected shill for Detroit.

[jamielu]

and this confirms it:

A Green Automotive Christmas
Favors Hummer Over Prius -- Again

Looking to give him or her the greenest of green automotive Christmas presents?

Pass up the Prius or any other hybrid and go for the Scion xB, Hummer H3, Range Rover, Buick Lucerne, Mustang or Honda Ridgeline.

In CNW Research’s second annual Dust-to-Dust Energy Cost study, only the Toyota Prius among all hybrids provides better lifetime energy efficiency than the auto industry average of $2.94 per mile.

What’s the price of being environmentally green? For Prius, the cost has come down since the first study by nearly 12 percent to $2.87 per mile. Improved utilization of Toyota’s hybrid technology, solid production volume and end-of-life advances in component disposal all contributed to the Prius improvement.

But it and other dual mode hybrids still cost society more in terms of energy consumption over their entire lifetime than many larger, more luxurious albeit lower fuel economy models.

The Hummer H3 SUV, for example, is $2.07 per mile over its lifetime. Ford Five Hundred all-wheel-drive full-size sedan is $2.22 per mile.

Most efficient and greenest of vehicles sold in calendar year 2006? Scion xB at a miserly $0.49 per mile.

And holding the top spot: Mercedes’ Maybach at $15.84 per mile – fully $5 more than even Rolls-Royce.

Primarily because of higher raw material and energy costs in 2006, only 77 of the 322 models measured had lower total “Dust to Dust” energy costs vs. the previous study. The industry average was 10.7 percent higher than a year ago.

CNW Research in Bandon, Oregon tracks consumer spending of all goods and services and is not solely an automotive research company. The Dust to Dust study is self-funded with findings free to both subscribers and the public at www.CNWMR.com.
[/b]

[MSantos]

Would it help to reference some of the most recent Toyota press releases where CNW study is addressed ?

Also, it would probably help to use the latest Consumer Reports' reliability ratings that place hybrid vehicles at the top of their classes for reliability. Heck, even the Escape hybrid does better than its gas-only counterpart (which ranked at the very bottom).

Cheers;

MSantos

[wolflady52]

http://www.andykerr.net/Energy/Kerr_Hybrid.pdf

The above article by Andy Kerr in Home Power magazine really convinced me to make my Prius purchase when I was running the numbers. Of course the numbers weren't everything, but I had to be armed and dangerous for those people who just can't fathom the economics. I've attached a copy of the spreadsheet. His article busts many of the myths about Hybrids.

[DaveinOlyWA]

WOW... talk about analyzing the angles. great spread sheet info. although, i think that gas will be rising much faster than his predicted rate. seems like the last 3 years, the price of gas has accelerated upwards. i think that trend will continue.

[kenmce]

Here are some common myths that my coworker's neighbor quoted. Debunk these if you can. . .
- The hybrid battery will die after only 6 years.
- The hybrid battery will cost $6,000 to replace.



Toyota, who ought to know, says:

http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyvi...ll/battery.html

Q: Do the high-voltage batteries ever need to be checked or serviced by the owner or by a dealer?

GS: No, there is no scheduled maintenance for the batteries.

Q: How long do the high-voltage batteries last?

GS: We designed them to last for the life of the vehicle. We're aware of owners who have racked up a quarter-million miles without replacing the batteries.

Q: What would it cost to replace a complete battery pack?

GS: Less than $3000, plus labor.

Q: How long is the warranty?

GS: The high-voltage batteries are warranted for eight years or 100,000 miles, and under California regulations the battery warranty extends to 10 years or 150,000 miles.


(km) If the batteries are only good for six years, but they are warrantied for eight to ten years, then Toyota is going to be giving every owner a new replacement battery for free. Sounds like a sweet deal for the owner. Or it could be that they know what they are doing, and the batteries really do last as long as any other system on the car.

If you don't want to go the dealer route you can go to eBay and enter the search string:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?c...itSearch=Search

it will show you a variety of Prius traction batteries that have been pulled from wrecks. Currently there are seven available, all but one of them going for less than $ 700 US at this time. Figure another $ 200 for shipping. Figure another $500 for the install. I'm assuming $25/hour and twenty hours billable time for installation. This is a fairly long time, but I'm assuming the mechanic has never done this procedure before, and is taking it very slow and carefull. This gives me a total of around $ 1,400 US, which nowadays is about the cost of replacing a bumper.

[porkfriedrice]

DEBUNK THIS

I must admit, I'm not particulary soft for toyota and actually rather like GM. Correct me if im wrong, but even if the Prius' battery and MPG are really good, I heard just the sheer amount of pollution realeased to make the special batteries out weighs the positive.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...in_page_id=1770

[TonyPSchaefer]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(porkfriedrice @ Feb 9 2007, 02:34 PM) [snapback]387661[/snapback]</div>

DEBUNK THIS

I must admit, I'm not particulary soft for toyota and actually rather like GM. Correct me if im wrong, but even if the Prius' battery and MPG are really good, I heard just the sheer amount of pollution realeased to make the special batteries out weighs the positive.

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...in_page_id=1770 [/b]

Okay: http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=26788
Be sure you read the entire thread. If you're using the article to attack Toyota, you clearly didn't read the whole article. With luck you'll do better with the rebuttal.

That was easy. What's next?

[porkfriedrice]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Feb 9 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]387720[/snapback]</div>

Okay: http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=26788
Be sure you read the entire thread. If you're using the article to attack Toyota, you clearly didn't read the whole article. With luck you'll do better with the rebuttal.

That was easy. What's next?
[/b]

I read it. Maybe I shouldn’t have said I am partial to GM because I think u might’ve already labeled me as someone who is against Toyota. I wasn’t sure and I remember hearing about it somewhere and I went to the article and read every bit. But if Toyota was so concerned about the environment, why not do a tiny bit a research? I’m sure there must’ve been a better alternative than something so evidently harmful? I don’t know a lot about batteries but I've heard li-ion or something was ready and could be used in cars. I'm just tired of the obvious misconceptions about American automakers. The quality isn’t that bad, even JD Powers agrees the quality is close if not on par with the Japanese. The top ten brands in quality included 5 American and 5 Japanese.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/amer..._cars/index.htm

Toyota is hailed as the greenest company and a savior of the environment. I think Honda is by far the most worthy of this title. It has the best overall fuel economy, somewhat helped by the lack of a full size truck, had the first hybrid if I'm correct, though it might use the same infamous battery as the prius.
As I understand it, Toyotas trucks are among the worst in mpg especially when compared with GM, though Toyota has some of the best marketing minds in the business. Also, to those saying that buying a Camry or tundra is helping the US just because it’s built in America; remember that mostly just means assembled. A lot of parts come from Japan and also all the R&D among others. To believe that all this money just gets reinvested in the US economy is naive. I don’t have anything in particular against Toyota except for pretending to be what they're not.
And even now I think a well run diesel can out perform any prius in fuel economy. Diesels are actually cleaner than petrol run cars now and emit the least CO2 out of all. If you really wanted to preserve the environment you could’ve bought one a while ago or even the infamous EV1 which was the first ever electric car. And was run completely by electricity. The reason it was killed was not because of the huge American gas hogs but just the fact that demand was very low.
To finish this rant, I will state that Toyota itself has admitted to manipulating billions of dollars from the imbalance of the yen to the dollar and the artificial devolvement of the Japanese currency. All the American car companies, even Daimler Chrysler, suffer from huge legacy costs and an image of poor quality; perhaps deserved before, up even into the 90s. Japan willingly helps is companies while the US does nothing to protect their industry.
Ugh sorry for this long tangent but I must also share a tale of Japanese manipulation with you. Back n time, sometime after Japan recovered from WW2 we sent over numerous amounts of electronics expertise, for at that time we were still the leaders of that industry also. We set up companies and started selling products in Japan. Japan refused to let them sell under the American nameplates and forced them to sell through Japanese companies. The companies subsequently raised the prices of the products in Japan to sell at a much lower price in the US. The American companies couldn’t compete and bankrupted. Jus look at the electronics now and tell me what is left of the US electronics industry. Even today Japan places unfair tariffs on foreign cars in their country to provide a healthy monopoly for their own companies to thrive on. Just a look back. In the end Toyota is just another company as is GM or any other. As such, they are in it to make money and be successful. That's it. Image is just another game you can play to manipulate people. Very, very few are out there just to save the world, and not to just make money. Remember that.

[bulldog]

You serious??

The Prius has a 100lb battery with some nickel in it. How much nickel do you think is in a normal car? I hate it when people try to do comparisons without knowing or stating facts. Like the H2 is greener than the Prius BS. How much enery does it take to produce a 6000LB truck compared to a 3000lb car?

Also how many GM/Ford models are actually made in the US now? And of those how much fo their content actually gets improted? The car industry is global and most components now gets made all over the world. Diamler Chrysler is now a German company in my mind anyway.

As to reliability, GM still has catching up to do. I agree that Toyota has been stagnent and probably wen down a peg or 2 in the last few years. However they are still ahead of GM or Ford in terms of overall quality by quite a margin. For me quality is 4-5 years down the line with 60-70k hard miles, not just initial fit and finish and small trim pieces. JD Powers is a flawed quality benchmark IMHO.

Agreed Honda is probably the green company, and only cause they don't sell any real trucks or SUVs. And they sell few of them.

Toyota trucks are no different in MPG compared to GM or Ford for the same size, perfromance and capaity truck.

As to the rest of your tangent, maybe go check all your "facts" before spewing stuff out on the internet. Your opinion does not equate to facts, sorry.

All the GM fanboys are getting pretty lame on Toyota boards. Maybe GM as a corporate need to get their act together and do somethign, rather than lame marketing and products for the main stream. That is why they are loosing market share against Toyota. Now with the new Tundra their last stronghold is under attack. When last did you drive a small or mid size GM sedan? Compare that to a Prius, Camry, Corolla. American manufacturer conseded the sedan market to foreign companies to move to the large and high profit margin SUVs and trucks. Now they are crying foul as those markets are under attack. It is time for them to make good products and people will buy them. Corvettes have no problem selling, but they are a niche market. Good products sell, bad ones dissappear in the long run. Simple as that.