Long term cost of ownership

Bob64 · 04-09-2007, 02:29 AM

Ok, one of our cars is about to hit the bucket, and its basically time for my family to start shopping around for a car. (We're not looking for used cars)

So far I've been able to dig up some pros and cons of getting a prius. However, all my ammo to try to convince my parents has been countered with more effective arguments. This is where you all come in (I hope). I want to somehow convince my parents that getting a Prius is a better long-term choice then getting another car like the Toyota Corolla. Am I fighting a battle I have no chance of winning?

BTW: I'm going for a package #2. So my estimates on the cheapest offer would be around 22k.

Pros:
Lower gas costs
One time tax deduction (Not as good as before, and its only one time)

Cons:
Property tax way higher then a 15k car (almost double in my area! Basically cancels out the lower gas cost)
Higher one-time cost (hybrids cost ~1.5x more then regular cars)
Higher insurance costs

I'm really looking for solid financial information to support investing in a Prius, as my parents only really care about the bottom line impact on their wallets and they hate giving the government more money to fuel their war of terror. The property tax was a huge loss to my offense, because the money we'd "save" from gas goes right to the government afterwards (until the value of the car drops).

Godiva · 04-09-2007, 02:45 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob64 @ Apr 9 2007, 02:29 AM) [snapback]420155[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Cons:
Property tax way higher then a 15k car (almost double in my area! Basically cancels out the lower gas cost)
Higher one-time cost (hybrids cost ~1.5x more then regular cars)
Higher insurance costs

[/b]

Check with your insurance company. They might give you a discount for a hybrid.

Hybrids 1.5 times the cost of regular car? Uh, no. More expensive then a sub compact stripped down tin box, yes. The Prius is a medium sized sedan and has some luxury features. The Prius cost more than a Yaris, yes. It costs a lot less than a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc. Cost is relative. What are you getting for your money? The Prius is a great value for the money. Right now they have a discount on options so you might be able to negotiate a higher package.

I have no way of knowing about the property tax thing.

The Prius does have less maintenance than a regular ICE car.

1) no starter (ie, as long as we have battery power, we can start the engine). This is good, since a good number of car malfunctions are bad starters.

2) no transmission. I thought the Prius had a CVT... but apparently, it effectively has NO transmission, (planetary gear) reducing power loss and... more importantly, again reducing the number of potential malfunctions

3) Regenerative braking - much less use of the brake pads.

4) The computer control of the engine ensures less stress is put on it, particularly when cold (the engine usually idles until it's warmed up while the battery takes over most of the work).

5) No clutch.

6) No alternator.

7) Only one drive belt for water pump.

It also have has a chain rather than a belt so less wear there. Oil change every 5,000 miles (not 3,000 like some cars). I'm sure others can let you know what routine maintenance is less frequent or not necessary compared to a cheaper ICE car.

I don't know where you are but in California the hybrid system is warrantied for 10 years or 150,000 miles.

Keep in mind that not only will you save on gas but you'll also pollute 80% LESS than a cheap ICE car.

I suggest you get your parents to go drive one. Compare that to a Corolla and while the Corolla is an OK car, it's cheaper. It's worth $15,000 and the Prius is worth $22,000. There's a reason for that. Keep in mind that the Corolla and Prius are not "even". It's like comparing a Corolla and a Camry. Remember: You get what you pay for.

onlynark · 04-09-2007, 02:53 AM

property tax, wtf? Are you 100% sure on that? that doesnt even make any sense. But basicly what Godiva said.

Bob64 · 04-09-2007, 03:11 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nark @ Apr 9 2007, 03:53 AM) [snapback]420161[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

property tax, wtf? Are you 100% sure on that? that doesn't even make any sense. But basically what Godiva said.
[/b]

Yeah, I live in Fairfax county in Virginia and apparently there are property taxes for cars...

The big killer is the part about car tax. The part of the car that is over 20k (~24k valued from MSRP) is not qualified for tax relief... which unfortunately doubles the tax compared to a 15,000 car (assuming my calculations are correct), the county website is horrible.

Ok, I suppose the fact that the Prius does not have as many parts as a normal car might mean something, but that is hard to quantify.

Well, my Mom and I did go to the dealer to check it out for a test drive, but she was immediately turned off by how it was completely different from a normal car

(yes, the shock of it having a power button and a park button was a bit too much) But I think that her feelings about the car negligible in the overall scheme of things.

I'll have to see if I can get my Dad to test drive it... hes more of a "high techy" person so it might put enough of a positive spin on things to turn the tide. He is also keeps the sharpest eyes on the checkbook... so it'll be hard.

adam1991 · 04-09-2007, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Oil change every 5,000 miles (not 3,000 like some cars).[/b]

Please. No new car on the market today specifies anywhere near a 3000 mile oil change, and in fact the Prius is deficient in specifying as low as a 5000 mile oil change. Most cars specify 7500 miles, and that's only IF they don't have the current computer technology that calculates the optimum oil change interval based on the type of driving the car has gotten.

Frankly, with all the technology inside the Prius, I was shocked that it doesn't have the simple automated oil change minder. It's not rocket science; it's just a simple algorithm for the computer to follow, and the Prius has nothing if not plenty of computing horsepower.

And an automated oil change minder is perfect to maximize the utilization of oil resources--which is what the Prius is all about.

Shoot, the lowliest Civic has this in it.

jiepsie · 04-09-2007, 05:33 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 9 2007, 12:23 PM) [snapback]420183[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Please. No new car on the market today specifies anywhere near a 3000 mile oil change, and in fact the Prius is deficient in specifying as low as a 5000 mile oil change. Most cars specify 7500 miles...
[/b]

How come the European manual says 15000 km, that's over 9000 miles?

wb9tyj · 04-09-2007, 07:11 AM

i have had my prius since 2004...i travel approximately 15-18000 miles/year...my fuel consumption has been reduced by 2/3rds over the period from purchase to now...maintenance has been oil changes filter changes and tires, and inspection...other than that no outlay of money for any thing...i dont know how "old " the parents are, but i am from the post ww2 baby boom generation...and in my opinion, this whole scenerio sounds like what i heard from the generation prior to mine(dont get me wrong, the older generation has forgot more than this current generation knows...)...lets see...we dont need a tv its corrupt...(may have a point there)...then dont need a color tv, black and white is fine..., then when the radio needed replaced...dont need it, the ol tube job works fine...when the car needed replaced...just a bit longer...the wire will hold the clutch together...then we dont need satellite tv...dont watch it...now its we dont need HD tv...standard tv is fine...until they shut it off...you see my point...i think once they see the benefits of the prius...and compare it to the depreciation curve of other vehicles...the new technology "scares " some due to lack of knowledge.......keep in mind this...gas isnt 20cents /gallon any more and the higher gas goes...the prius is worth more....btw you think you have taxes...try indiana...new car plates with property tax...or they call it excise tax is $300+ for new cars....depending on the car...in essence the govt condones driving junk based on tax laws...

Rangerdavid · 04-09-2007, 07:16 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(adam1991 @ Apr 9 2007, 06:23 AM) [snapback]420183[/snapback]</div>

Quote:

Please. No new car on the market today specifies anywhere near a 3000 mile oil change, and in fact the Prius is deficient in specifying as low as a 5000 mile oil change.

Frankly, with all the technology inside the Prius, I was shocked that it doesn't have the simple automated oil change minder. It's not rocket science; it's just a simple algorithm for the computer to follow, and the Prius has nothing if not plenty of computing horsepower.

And an automated oil change minder is perfect to maximize the utilization of oil resources--which is what the Prius is all about.

Shoot, the lowliest Civic has this in it.
[/b]

Actually, the Prius does have this feature, its the "MAIN REQ" light that comes on at 5000, 10000, 15000, etc. miles.

The maintenace on the Prius is certainly much less than regular vehicles. All I've ever had to do is change the oil and rotate the tires. Its a breeze!!

JimboK · 04-09-2007, 07:25 AM

Another small benefit of the Prius in your area: HOV lane access. But check into it first to make sure it's gonna last. There was a move this year in the General Assembly and/or by the Governor to cut it off. Since we don't have HOV lanes in central VA I haven't followed the issue closely, so I don't know what happened.

brick · 04-09-2007, 08:16 AM

Well, hold on a minute. What are we shopping the Prius against here? If it's Prius vs. another car in the $23,000 range then the financial math is easy. The Prius is likely to win by a large margin. But if we're talking about a $23,000 Prius vs. a $12-$16k Yaris, Fit, Versa, etc. then you're going to have a very hard time justifying it on cost alone. Then there's the question, do your parents really want to spend that much money on a car? It sounds like they might not, in which case I think that the choices mentioned above would be worth a good long look.

Don't get me wrong, if I had to do it all again I would buy my Prius a second time. It's a great vehicle and exactly serves my needs. But it isn't the be-all and end-all of relatively efficient transportation. I think it's well worth owning, but only if the price fits the budget.

04-09-2007, 02:29 AM	#1
Bob64 Sapphire of the Blue Sky Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 826 My Car: 2007 Prius Package: #2 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Ok, one of our cars is about to hit the bucket, and its basically time for my family to start shopping around for a car. (We're not looking for used cars) So far I've been able to dig up some pros and cons of getting a prius. However, all my ammo to try to convince my parents has been countered with more effective arguments. This is where you all come in (I hope). I want to somehow convince my parents that getting a Prius is a better long-term choice then getting another car like the Toyota Corolla. Am I fighting a battle I have no chance of winning? BTW: I'm going for a package #2. So my estimates on the cheapest offer would be around 22k. Pros: Lower gas costs One time tax deduction (Not as good as before, and its only one time) Cons: Property tax way higher then a 15k car (almost double in my area! Basically cancels out the lower gas cost) Higher one-time cost (hybrids cost ~1.5x more then regular cars) Higher insurance costs I'm really looking for solid financial information to support investing in a Prius, as my parents only really care about the bottom line impact on their wallets and they hate giving the government more money to fuel their war of terror. The property tax was a huge loss to my offense, because the money we'd "save" from gas goes right to the government afterwards (until the value of the car drops). __________________ 2007 "Pirates of the Internet" Seaside Pearl Nicknamed "Souten" (蒼天) Japanese for Blue Sky. Named for the hope that its namesake will remain forever the same color as its exterior. Lifetime average MPG at 18621 miles: 65.5MPG Daily trip mpg: 64.1MPG Winter temps : ( Personal mpg record driving the above trip: 90.5MPG @ 86F Mods: 90% grill block EBH "Racing" Hubcaps

04-09-2007, 07:11 AM	#7
wb9tyj Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 255 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #9 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	i have had my prius since 2004...i travel approximately 15-18000 miles/year...my fuel consumption has been reduced by 2/3rds over the period from purchase to now...maintenance has been oil changes filter changes and tires, and inspection...other than that no outlay of money for any thing...i dont know how "old " the parents are, but i am from the post ww2 baby boom generation...and in my opinion, this whole scenerio sounds like what i heard from the generation prior to mine(dont get me wrong, the older generation has forgot more than this current generation knows...)...lets see...we dont need a tv its corrupt...(may have a point there)...then dont need a color tv, black and white is fine..., then when the radio needed replaced...dont need it, the ol tube job works fine...when the car needed replaced...just a bit longer...the wire will hold the clutch together...then we dont need satellite tv...dont watch it...now its we dont need HD tv...standard tv is fine...until they shut it off...you see my point...i think once they see the benefits of the prius...and compare it to the depreciation curve of other vehicles...the new technology "scares " some due to lack of knowledge.......keep in mind this...gas isnt 20cents /gallon any more and the higher gas goes...the prius is worth more....btw you think you have taxes...try indiana...new car plates with property tax...or they call it excise tax is $300+ for new cars....depending on the car...in essence the govt condones driving junk based on tax laws... __________________ http://www.nationalweatherreview.com

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04-09-2007, 02:53 AM	#3
onlynark Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: bay area Posts: 182 My Car: Other Hybrid Package: N/A Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	property tax, wtf? Are you 100% sure on that? that doesnt even make any sense. But basicly what Godiva said.

04-09-2007, 07:25 AM	#9
JimboK One owner, low mileage Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chesterfield, VA Posts: 1,995 My Car: 2005 Prius Package: #2 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 3	Another small benefit of the Prius in your area: HOV lane access. But check into it first to make sure it's gonna last. There was a move this year in the General Assembly and/or by the Governor to cut it off. Since we don't have HOV lanes in central VA I haven't followed the issue closely, so I don't know what happened.

04-09-2007, 08:16 AM	#10
brick Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 698 My Car: 2007 Prius Package: #2 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Well, hold on a minute. What are we shopping the Prius against here? If it's Prius vs. another car in the $23,000 range then the financial math is easy. The Prius is likely to win by a large margin. But if we're talking about a $23,000 Prius vs. a $12-$16k Yaris, Fit, Versa, etc. then you're going to have a very hard time justifying it on cost alone. Then there's the question, do your parents really want to spend that much money on a car? It sounds like they might not, in which case I think that the choices mentioned above would be worth a good long look. Don't get me wrong, if I had to do it all again I would buy my Prius a second time. It's a great vehicle and exactly serves my needs. But it isn't the be-all and end-all of relatively efficient transportation. I think it's well worth owning, but only if the price fits the budget.