Sad, but oh so true!

[FloridaWen]

Sad, but oh so true!

I certainly love America but here's something to think about:
Ford Motor Company has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

The last quarter's results:
Toyota makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY!

[Prius The First]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 15 2007, 04:43 AM) [snapback]442293[/snapback]</div>

Sad, but oh so true!

I certainly love America but here's something to think about:
Ford Motor Company has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

The last quarter's results:
Toyota makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY!

[/b]

All sad and all true. Ford, Chrysler and GM have done this to themselves. Build the cars that people want with the quality they expect. Hopefully they will be able to turn it all around. Kind of like turning the Titanic around before it hit the iceberg...........

[FloridaWen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prius The First @ May 15 2007, 08:40 AM) [snapback]442322[/snapback]</div>

All sad and all true. Ford, Chrysler and GM have done this to themselves. Build the cars that people want with the quality they expect. Hopefully they will be able to turn it all around. Kind of like turning the Titanic around before it hit the iceberg...........
[/b]

Does anyone remember that movie (documentary) in the 70's by Michael Moore called "ROGER AND ME" ??
It was all about GM moving OUT of Michigan and other USA locations and "opening production shops" in Brazil, Mexico, etc. It showed all the "domino effect" this had on all the people it laid off as well as the area businesses. Detroit turned in (NO disrespect intended) a "slum" filled with unemployment and drug-use, etc. Saginaw and Lansing (made transmissions) were hurtin' too. Now I am NOT from Michigan so I may have not got all the facts correct, but I was a "teenage gearhead" the time that movie came out, with my '69 RoadRunner and it shocked the Hell out of me to see USA Corporations treat human beings the way they did..............

[dbermanmd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FloridaWen @ May 15 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]442293[/snapback]</div>

Sad, but oh so true!

I certainly love America but here's something to think about:
Ford Motor Company has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

The last quarter's results:
Toyota makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WASN'T SO SAD IT MIGHT BE FUNNY!

[/b]

Unions baby - Unions - watch Cerebrus bust em upside their head now. Amazing, MB buys Chyrsler for $36 BILLION and ends up paying Cerebrus to take it off their hands - while retaining a 20% stake - why the 20% stake -- because MB believes now that Chrysler is privately owned they [Cerebrus] will be able to do what MB was not able to do - bust the unions. Gotta love it.

Ford and GM will benefit BIG TIME from this too as uncion concessions at Chrysler will trickle down to them. There is little doubt in my mind that both GM and Ford are playing the same game MB did with Chrysler - they are using their balance sheets as a weapon and see NO use for improving their product line at all until they fix their LARGEST PROBLEM - the unions.

[daronspicher]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 15 2007, 07:59 AM) [snapback]442330[/snapback]</div>

Unions baby - Unions - watch Cerebrus bust em upside their head now. Amazing, MB buys Chyrsler for $36 BILLION and ends up paying Cerebrus to take it off their hands - while retaining a 20% stake - why the 20% stake -- because MB believes now that Chrysler is privately owned they [Cerebrus] will be able to do what MB was not able to do - bust the unions. Gotta love it.

Ford and GM will benefit BIG TIME from this too as uncion concessions at Chrysler will trickle down to them. There is little doubt in my mind that both GM and Ford are playing the same game MB did with Chrysler - they are using their balance sheets as a weapon and see NO use for improving their product line at all until they fix their LARGEST PROBLEM - the unions.
[/b]

The Unions were my first thought too. They are too heavy for the American automakers. A couple things I'm not sure of, maybe someone can chime in...

Do the US Toyota factories have the unions and similar union compensation packages that the Big 3 have?

The cost of medical benefits the big 3 have to support is huge. I'm sure the Toyota plants in the US have this problem also, but cars made in some other parts of the world don't have to support near the cost of medical that cars built here have to overcome.

We're not willing to pay what it costs to make a halfassed built grand caravan minivan. $5000 of it is medical insurance an union weight.

[qbee42]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prius The First @ May 15 2007, 08:40 AM) [snapback]442322[/snapback]</div>

All sad and all true. Ford, Chrysler and GM have done this to themselves. Build the cars that people want with the quality they expect. Hopefully they will be able to turn it all around. Kind of like turning the Titanic around before it hit the iceberg...........
[/b]

More like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Tom

[mpgFanatic]

If you want to know the truth, do a Google on automotive industry legacy costs.

You will quickly learn that Toyota's legacy costs are $100 per car sold, whereas GM's is $1360. Legacy costs are, quite simply, years and years of accumulated retirement and medical insurance costs that were agreed upon by the unions and manufacturers. You can blame whoever you like but nothing will change the facts. Nor is possible for a manufacturer to change course and make it all better.

[Marlin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ May 15 2007, 09:20 AM) [snapback]442344[/snapback]</div>

The Unions were my first thought too. They are too heavy for the American automakers. A couple things I'm not sure of, maybe someone can chime in...

Do the US Toyota factories have the unions and similar union compensation packages that the Big 3 have?

The cost of medical benefits the big 3 have to support is huge. I'm sure the Toyota plants in the US have this problem also, but cars made in some other parts of the world don't have to support near the cost of medical that cars built here have to overcome.

We're not willing to pay what it costs to make a halfassed built grand caravan minivan. $5000 of it is medical insurance an union weight.
[/b]

GM has 2.5 retirees for each of it's 324,000 active employees. That's 810,000 retired union workers to which GM pays a pension and health insurance. This amounts to about $2000 per car.

Toyota and others built their factories in the South, and are without unions. They pay their workers less (althought not too much less), but their workforce is younger resulting in lower benefit costs, and they have few retired workers.

[Stev0]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ May 15 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]442463[/snapback]</div>

Toyota and others built their factories in the South, and are without unions. They pay their workers less (althought not too much less), but their workforce is younger resulting in lower benefit costs, and they have few retired workers.
[/b]

Actually I read the non-union Toyota workers made more than their Union counterparts.

[subarutoo]

Yesterday's LA Daily News paper had Dodge 4 door Ram pickups discounted $10,000 (!) off sticker. If it costs so much in union fees, etc. to build a car, how can they discount it $10K or about 30% off sticker and stay alive? $10000 used to get you a whole truck ! Not to beat a dead horse, but if US built cars the world wanted, not just big-ass pickups and SUVs, there would be some global market, i.e. global profits. I know the US companies can build more rational cars for whatever foreign market they compete in, but here in the good old USA, they still build cars and trucks that are not appropriate for these times, and the Japanese are eating their lunch. I have a hard time feeling sorry for them, but for the US workers it sucks. Being human means being adaptable, as a consumer, as well as a worker. If the Toyota are US built, and the US brand factories are closing, it is time to either work for the Japanese, or re-structure the US brand companies to compete, even if it means fewer, but better, more efficient cars. In this day and age, no job is "for life". Why should autoworkers be any different?

I am nearing retirement age, and have no pension benefit plan. Did autoworkers work any harder for the past 35 years than I did? I don't understand how they deserve the pensions, and the high hourly pay and benefits that has become such an albatross around the factories neck. It is the unions that have strangled the US car companies, and the companys' lack of foresight and innovation in model choices that sealed the deal.