how much will it cost to fill up an alternative fuel car? ?

[Danny Hamilton]

Originally Posted by richard schumacher

Wait, how does that work? Short version, please. You'll never have to pay to replace the batteries?

Sure, but the batteries aren't the fuel, they are the container for the fuel. It is analogous to replacing the gas tank.

A better question is if he's ever likely to need to replace or repair the solar panels.

[miscrms]

Originally Posted by darelldd

The goal here - on that is absolutley attainable - is full battery EVs at price parity with, say, the Prius.

Thats my base assumption. To drive 15,000 miles per year on pure electric you need a true BEV, not just a PHEV. As to whether its feasible....

In 1997 the EV1 lead acid had a base efficiency of 164Wh/mile combined cycle. Net AC Efficiency was 248 Wh/mile. DOE tested combined cycle range was 78 miles (guessing this was the early Delco batteries?). The 1999 NimH version combined cycle range went up to 140 miles, but base efficiency dropped to 179 Wh/mile and net AC efficiency to 373 Wh/mile. Its my understanding that part of this hit was due to GM trying to shoehorn the NimH batteries into the battery tunnel they had designed for the lead acid pack. This lead to heat problems, requiring active cooling of the batteries. A properly designed pack with proper ventilation, and a more efficient charging algorithm (maybe at the cost of a little range) would have probably brought this back down near the lead acid efficiency numbers. Production cost estimates I've seen are in the range of $50,000 in the 100s basically built by hand.
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/genmot.pdf
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav98.pdf

10 years later and given the benefits of volume production, you would expect that they could do much better and yet the late 90s design was not far off the mark. Everyone talks about needing a 300 mile range, but the reality is that 100 mile would do just fine for the vast majority of people. Everyone talks about needing fast charging and an immense remote charging infrastructure when the reality is that charging at home on a standard outlet overnight would work just fine for the vast majority of people. IMHO a 100 mile EV and a 30-40 mile PHEV would be an ideal combination for most American families, and would take a drastic chunk out of our fuel consumption. The problem has been how to convince people that they can live with what they actually need. I think the fuel cost argument could very well be the way to finally convince them.

When people come to understand that while the gas for their average 22mpg car costs $4.08/gallon, the "gas" for an EV costs 16c-50c per "gallon" depending on what time of day you plug it in, I think that will get a lot of peoples attention. Even compared to the Prius the EV is like getting gas at 34c-$1.03 per gallon. Once the demand is there, I think people will initially be much more interested in a $25k car that goes 100 miles than a $35k car that goes 200 miles.

As far as the solar goes, think of it this way: Someone you trust comes along and says they have a deal for you. They can get you special emissions free, 100% domestically produced gas at 70c per gallon and can guarantee that the price will not go up for 20-25 years. The only catch is you have to pre-pay for $5k worth to have access and have to use it, you can't resell it. How hard would you try to scrounge up that $5k?

Assuming that purchasing a Prius and 100 mile EV are on par, the $5k extra investment for the solar array for the EV would net a 22.6% annualized ROI assuming gas for the Prius stays at $4.08 for the next 25 years. If gas averages $5/gallon for the next 25 years you're up to 28.6%. At $3/gallon you're only earning 15.5%. Who knew saving the planet could be so profitable?

Rob

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by Sheepdog

hello?

Howdy!

I'm only showing my situation. Not saying it can happen for everybody. Just that it can happen.

Originally Posted by richard schumacher

Wait, how does that work? Short version, please. You'll never have to pay to replace the batteries?

Short verson:
Cost of solar panels plus car was $45,000. The panels will produce electricity for the next 50 years, regardless of if the car falls apart, I buy a new one, etc. I'll always have some sort of EV here. The batteries are proving to last the life of the car. If you want the longer answer, I can now sell my car for $70,000, and then the amount I paid for all this is NEGATIVE.

Originally Posted by ctbering

Nice movie, very impressive. I didn't realize what is or could be availablle for alternative cars.

Then I'm REALLY glad that I posted!

I have questions about your RAV; like the electric engine, how powerful is it?

It is only a little bit more powerful than the gas version. It was made as fleet car, not as a family car. And in fact they had to add torque control since the fleet drivers were burning the rubber off the front tires. No kidding!

The total cost of the garage solar panels, charger and car?

$45,000. The car is today worth $70,000

Any electric motor maintenance since it does not require oil?

Absolutely none. You did watch the videos? The purpose of those was to cover these questions. The motor is good for over 1 million miles with zero maintenance.

If ET vehicles become the norm all of the State and federal taxes would raise the price of fueling significantly, I believe.

Right now I'm subsidizing oil and 6,000+ pound SUVs. Let's level the playing field, and I'm happy to pay my share. That "significant" increase in the price of fuel may bring it all the way up to 1/4 the cost of gas??

Originally Posted by miscrms

At $3/gallon you're only earning 15.5%. Who knew saving the planet could be so profitable?

Rob

Good one!

All kidding aside, renewables CAN absolutely be profitable. All the nay-saying about the jobs it will cost us to get off oil are just crazy. We start making our energy here, and we increase jobs locally, and keep our money here. We have no choice really - we HAVE to start controlling our energy, or we have no security or control of our future... or finances.

[miscrms]

Originally Posted by ctbering

At his point the government is not looking to you for tax revenue because your progressive and ET vehicles are very limited. If ET vehicles become the norm all of the State and federal taxes would raise the price of fueling significantly, I believe.

Maybe true, but for now its the opposite. Again using AZ numbers (each state has their own incentives) you can get $2,000 federal tax credit, $1,000 state tax credit, a ~43% utility rebate, and you even get a sales tax and property tax exemption. Sounds way better than paying fuel taxes to me. One more reason to act soon before the party is over

Rob