Is it cheaper to fill up with electricity yet?

[DaveinOlyWA]

Originally Posted by bredekamp

With gas prices sitting where they are and with no likelihood of going down, I was wondering....

A typical Prius gets 48 mpg. That's
48 miles per gallon = 0.0208333333 US gallons per mile


At $4.00 per gallon that's $0.0833 per mile. How much electricity would an electric car use to go one mile? How much would that electricity cost?

All I'm saying is that there comes a point where driving an electric car is cheaper than using gas.

guess that all depends on the cost of electricity, but most EV owners report around 3 miles per killowatt. in my Zenn, i get between 3¼ to nearly 4 miles per kwh... (my average has been increasing since my Zenn was reprogrammed to disable regen...weird how that works huh?)

so get out your electric bill, take the amount you pay, divide it by the kwh use used to get a real cost... mine is around 8 cents... so i do about 2 to 2½ cents per mile

[Nords]

Originally Posted by bredekamp

All I'm saying is that there comes a point where driving an electric car is cheaper than using gas.

Originally Posted by Godiva

Put some PV on your roof and it's even cheaper.

Especially if you already have a PV array and a net-metering agreement to lower your utility bills. The PHEV expenses are just a few hundred bucks' worth of extra panels & connections.

Originally Posted by auricchio

The quoted per-KWH prices are way too low.
I don't have time-of-use metering; since my usage is way above baseline, my top price is almost 33c per kwh.
(I can't go TOU because I work from home so I'm here all day. And to run washer/dryer/dishwasher after 8pm gets difficult, since those appliances require attendance, and that gets quite late.) The electric cost on Peak periods is horrendous.
So if I triple the $3.29/96 miles that gets me down to $3.29/32 miles. That's about equal to $4.20 gasoline in my Prius (41mpg average). It's still a bit cheaper than gasoline...but not by much.

Oahu electricity is about 25 cents/KWHr plus the fuel surcharge. (When your net use is only 70 KWHr/month, a $10 fuel surcharge is proportionally much more painful.) Neighbor islands, with their own small monopolies, er, utilities, pay even more. So at your electricity prices it's an even better time to go photovoltaic.

Our washing machine & dishwasher have start-delay timers, and I think it's intended to appeal to TOU customers. I guess a start-delay timer for a 240V appliance isn't much in demand.

[DaveinOlyWA]

the price some pay for electricity is astounding...my cost being around 8 cents is actually lower frequently due to BPA kickbacks (which used to be every month, but now only comes around a few times a year) that reduce the rate 25-40%...

i suppose it wouldnt make anyone feel better to know that after an estimated 10% population growth, continued sales of power to other states, etc... we are still estimated to be running with an average of 2 to 3 Gigawatts of extra power capacity??... guess having all that snow and rain isn t all bad afterall...

[928Quest]

There is a blog I read that was done recently by an engineer at National Semiconductor, he was comparing gas and electric costs. I think he actually did everything he could to make the gas win, but in the end the electric costs were much lower.

I posted a link and some comments HERE

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by fcc

But is not purpose of getting an EV vehicle to save a bit of money?

Excuse my complete surprise at this comment... but WHAT? You see no other "purpose" of getting an EV than saving money? Good lord. This can no longer be about "the money." That is what has screwed us in the past, and we can't continue down that road. In some cases, we cannot afford to save money. That an EV WILL save us money is just icing on the cake. The convenience, the environmental benefits, the national security benefits are WAY more important that what you pay at the pump.

Renting another car twice a month or having a second vehicle insured so it is ready to drive at a moment's notice seems to defeat the main purpose.

If "saving money" is the only thing that drives your transporatation decisons, you should seriously consider riding the bus. Riding a bike. Sharing a car with somebody else. As I've alreasy said, this should not, and really CAN not be the main way we choose our transportation. And I believe I also already said that there are millions of households that have two cars to begin with. Making one of them an EV doesn't create this "second vehicle."

We have not even began to discuss the amount of time it takes to recharge or other caveats that will become apparent to those who drive it daily.

Just for the record... you do realize that you're talking with somebody who's family DOES driven an EV daily, right? And we've been doing it for about eight years and 80,000 miles. Our EV is our main car. The Prius is only driven about 2x/month. The amount of MY time it takes to recharge is way the heck less than the amount of my time it takes to put gas in a regular car. Wanna see a demonstration?

YouTube - Fueling an Electric Car with sunshine

So lets say you drive to work 25 miles one way and back, run your errands around town
and pick up little billy at practice later on adding another 25 miles. Do you dare use the
car again on only an hours charge to go out on a friday night?

Uh... why not just charge it during all those hours when it is sitting parked? Because there are no chargers handy? Well, that's what we have to work on. We had ZERO gas stations when gasoline cars made their debut 100 years ago. And gosh, they managed to prosper at the expense of our health, economy, and well-being, didn't they?

I think this is just debating and I hope people here do not see this as a slam on EV vehicles.

I don't see it as a slam at all. I see it as being somewhat ignorant of the realities of modern EVs.

Originally Posted by auricchio

The quoted per-KWH prices are way too low.

I don't have time-of-use metering; since my usage is way above baseline, my top price is almost 33c per kwh.

Do you not have the option of TOU? It is a crime if not. At night electricity is basically excess, and should be close to free. During peak times, it should cost tremendously more. 99% of the time you can charge the car at night on the cheap electricity. Oops... I just read the below after I typed this!

(I can't go TOU because I work from home so I'm here all day. And to run washer/dryer/dishwasher after 8pm gets difficult, since those appliances require attendance, and that gets quite late.) The electric cost on Peak periods is horrendous.

I have a home office as well, and absolutely LOVE TOU. It is amazing how easy it becomes to time-shift various activities. I'll bet if you put your mind to it, you could save a significant amount of money if you're paying 33c/kWh for EVERY bit you use. What IS your peak pricing?

So if I triple the $3.29/96 miles that gets me down to $3.29/32 miles. That's about equal to $4.20 gasoline in my Prius (41mpg average). It's still a bit cheaper than gasoline...but not by much.

So then you're just stuck with the convenience of EV charging and ownership. Bummer.

Originally Posted by DaveinOlyWA

guess that all depends on the cost of electricity, but most EV owners report around 3 miles per killowatt.

The Rav does about 3.5. The EV1 did about 5.5 miles/kWh. A modern aero car should beat that. But the average of the production cars was 3-4.

When I started driving an EV, I stopped paying much attention to the price of gas. When I installed solar, I stopped paying attention to the price of electricity. I basically drive for free these days.

[HolyPotato]

I have a home office as well, and absolutely LOVE TOU. It is amazing how easy it becomes to time-shift various activities. I'll bet if you put your mind to it, you could save a significant amount of money if you're paying 33c/kWh for EVERY bit you use. What IS your peak pricing?

Not to get too far off topic... and I'm not that familiar with the US tax laws... but if you're working from home aren't you allowed to deduct a portion of your energy costs as a work expense? Wouldn't TOU pricing be ideal for this because it makes the split between work and home electricity usage even more clear for the IRS?

(and for needless snark: I've seen poorly balanced washing machines try to run away, but what sort of supervision does your dishwasher need?)

So lets say you drive to work 25 miles one way and back, run your errands around town
and pick up little billy at practice later on adding another 25 miles. Do you dare use the
car again on only an hours charge to go out on a friday night?

EVs, especially the "first" generation won't be for everyone, as others have said. I'm out on my own and have the one car for my wife and I, and unfortunately do too much long-distance highway driving too regularly to make an EV work for me right now... but back home my parents and younger siblings have 3 cars for 4 drivers. One or maybe even two of those could easily be an EV without impacting their lifestyle at all*. The scenario quoted might make EVs seem a little restrictive... but then as darelldd said, you can plug it in while at work. Plus, a 25-mile commute (40 km!) is pretty extreme. Sure, some people have commutes that long, but for the greater Toronto area that's commuting in from the bleeding edge of suburbia where the monoculture housing starts turning into farmland. Most people would have much shorter commutes (is sprawl that much worse in the US?).

They won't work for everybody (at least, not at first), but they work for enough people that if I had a car company or a billion dollars to create one, I know what kind of car I'd be building...

* - admittedly, it would impact them a bit, since "dad's car" might have to be opened up to the other drivers when its range was needed.

[ranchogirl]

My SCE bill is already always through the roof. I gotta wonder.

[darelldd]

Originally Posted by ranchogirl

My SCE bill is already always through the roof. I gotta wonder.

And your gasoline bill is pleasantly low? Gotta wonder what? Wonder how you could save energy at home so you could afford to fuel your EV for less than you pay for gas? That's a problem that I wish on everybody!

[fcc]

darrell, the video you showed simply demonstrated the amount of time it takes to plug
it in failing to show how long it takes to charge it to full....

also just because you drive an EV vehicle does not mean it is a fit for everyone else who
might have different needs then you. For example i work in a field, IT, where I might be
sent in the middle of the night to fix a router in a state over. I need a reliable car that
can do the job without I worrying if I have enough charge after driving it all day.

Also I am single. I have no need for two cars.... I am not yet the typical household, which
I admit could very well change!

In the end I agree that there are more benefits then just saving money. I am envious
of your setup the way you described it. But I also am the type of person who lets the
EVNUTS work out the kinks before jumping in feet first. I cannot afford mistakes and
will have to wait until it fits my needs very closely and has proven itself over time.

Sorta like the prius. I waited 10 years after the car's debut and maybe in 5-7 years I will
get to replace it with an EV once I see the results from NUTS like you :-)

[SteveB]

Just for comparison...

I just looked at my SDG&E (San Diego Gas and Electric) bill and they are actually charging me a baseline of .03/KWH for power... but then I live about 25mi from the San Onofre Nuclear Reactor.

Shall we have a huge long debate about Nuclear Power now?

:-)

Also, Daryl, you are one of the blessed few that managed to get a RAV IV EV before they were withdrawn from the market. I'm in the process of PHEV'ing my 2008 Pri, but eventually I am going to get a full EV. I'm either going to convert my own, or win the lottery and buy a Tesla

:P

Steve