Battery Replacement

[insolarman]

Now have 96,000 relatively maintenance free miles on our 2001 and have been doing some research on advanced Li ion batteries. Supposedly Ovonics will be making a Li ion with a higher amp-hr capacity than the Panasonics in our PRius.
I e-mailed them about their production, but they indicated they would not sell to a one time retail customer.
Would appreciate any feedback.
The research article indicated they outfitted a 2001 with their batteries and were able to drive 25-30 mile at 35 miles per hour without the gas engine coming on due to the current being maintained by the more efficient and larger ampacity bank.

[kenmce]

>Now have 96,000 relatively maintenance free miles on our 2001

(KM) Coming up on 50 K that's exactly what I want to hear!

> and have been doing some research on advanced Li ion batteries.
> Supposedly Ovonics will be making a Li ion with a higher amp-hr
> capacity than the Panasonics in our PRius. I e-mailed them about
> their production, but they indicated they would not sell to a one
> time retail customer.

(KM) Will they sell to your local dealer? Would the local dealer be
willing to install it? Ask who they sell to in your area.

> The research article indicated they outfitted a 2001 with their batteries
> and were able to drive 25-30 mile at 35 miles per hour without the
> gas engine coming on due to the current being maintained by the
> more efficient and larger ampacity bank.

(KM) That would be nice! Did they have to do anything to the
computer to get it to work with a different battery?

[DaveinOlyWA]

ya Lithium ion batteries are well known to be the best battery you can buy IF you can afford one. they didnt by any chance quote you a price for that battery they were talking about did they??

well, i have seen quotes for similiar batteries that have run anywhere from 10-50k. heck the 4 hour battery for my camcorder is over $100 and its a little dinky thing.

[DaveG]

Well, regular lithium batteries are good in some applications, but a hard current draw from electric motors and such aren't really suitable for lithiums.

For driving electronics (PDAs, Cell phones, video cameras, etc) which have low-current requirements, Lithium is the way to go. It packs a lot of energy density into a small space, giving you a long runtime.

Perhaps they're working with a different lithium chemistry which can handle the more demanding requirements of electric vehicles.

Dave.

[DaveinOlyWA]

the application i saw uses multiple parallel banks to achieve the high current requirements. this no doubt contributed greatly to its high cost. but if weight is a problem (in battery applications, that is the only real drawback) then Lithium Ion is by far the best solution. its charge to weight ratio is about 175 i think. i have a chart here some wheres and cant find it right now. (charge to weight is a comparison of storage charge using Lead Acid as a base.)

but we need not count out Nickel Metal Hydrides yet. although they are still lagging Lithium Ions by a good deal, they are improving. the same guy who invented them is also working on Hydrogen technology, but he says that NiMH batteries will better than double their capacities in 5 years. so for those who want to keep their Prius long term, there may be a solution that will give you a lot more battery power.

[jchu]

How about some of the new high density capicitor storage devices? Advantages that I know of are charge to weight and no downside to deep discharge (no battery memory issues). Univ. of ID. engineering dept. went the capacitor route for their SUV for some sort of competition in Detriot.

[DaveinOlyWA]

hmmm dont know. not familiar with the technology. do you have a link?

i think there are several avenues that the world can go in but getting the funding and backing of major distributors has been the sticking point.

about a year ago i read an article about scientists working with micromotors. these were motors that usually measure less than a few millimeters across. they had built a small jet turbine that ran on propane. it could easily have been converted to generate electricity and they were investigating the possibilities of putting the technology to work in laptops. if sucessful, they envisioned a laptop with an endless run time because it would run on propane and be refilled just like a butane lighter.

another application was a mini refrigerator that would be used to cool laptops also running on propane. i suppose you guys would never guess that im a computer nut eh?

[Frank Hudon]

you should have, by all reports, at least another 50-90,000 miles in your current battery, why change till needed?

[DaveinOlyWA]

hmmm if i could replace it for a battery that will run 25-30 miles without recharging, i be tempted to replace a brand new batttery if the price is right.

[molain]

I'm not sure you're being entirely realistic here.

YES, the idea of a vehicle that can do all around-town driving in pure-electric mode while still being able to drive long distances and filling up at the gas pump is quite a desirable feature, it's more complex to add to the Prius than just sticking in a larger battery pack.

First of all, the Prius is designed to get ALL its energy from gasoline, which is definitely an efficiency bottleneck. I, more than most Prius owners would like to see a plug-in hybrid, but alas, the best solution I've come up with is the 1974 Porsche 914 in my garage that I'm converting to an around-town car with 25-30 miles range. Anyway, it wouldn't be practical to charge a Li-Ion pack w/ 30 miles range off just regen.

Second, the Prius isn't really designed to expect a large battery pack -- it kicks in the engine no matter what when you hit 41MPH (unless you're in neutral). I've heard that it has no problem utilizing a larger pack, but it may not be entirely practical. An EV-mode button would certainly help, but it'll still be kicking in the ICE more than you might want.

My recommendation to you if you are serious about this would be to investigate thunder-sky.com, which is a good source for EV-sized LiIon batteries. Some people have used them as their primary pack in a pure EV. Be warned though that LiIons can be tough to manage, nad you'll need to come up with a charging solution that doesn't cause them to catch fire.
You could always try good old lead acid, if you don't mind adding about 1/2 a ton of weight to your car (not to mention eating a fair bit of space).

-Ben