Engine Conversion ?? Unleaded Petroleum (petro) to diesel

greenjon · 04-07-2005, 01:17 PM

Recently my "tree hugging" gene which lay mostly dormant has awaken with fervor.

I've been trying to figure out what I can do to make my new commute both more environmentally green, and save some of my money green.

I've found and read alot about diesel engines being great for an easy green conversion. Biodiesel blends /pure are an immediate replacement w/o any impact on the engine. Throw in a grease diesel for SVO capabilities and you're hugging a forest.

So, this leads me to my quest to the next level, getting a Prius, doing a diesel conversion, running off pure Biodiesel, and install the grease kit conversion.

Anyone out there have any experience with this concept? knowledge of the Prius internals / engine and computer.

Any shot of this being possible? a few thousand dollars is within "budget".

Tempus · 04-07-2005, 02:42 PM

I think its safe to say it's absolutely impossible if you're thinking you're going to get a diesel hybrid.

If you are talking about ripping out all the internals of the Prius, including all the computers, brakes, steering gear, AC, etc etc, and replacing it all with conventional components, it would be only slightly less impossible.

As far as cost to try it, I'd guess at least the cost of the car all over again.

gschoen · 04-07-2005, 02:51 PM

All of the conversions to biodiesels (or high blends) have been from conventional diesel engines. While anything is possible, this conversion is undoubtedly simpler than for gasoline engines (not sure I've heard of anyone doing that.. diesel engines are much more sturdy) and I believe the cost was around $1,000, but I don't remember. .. I think I saw it on the news about a guy/company who is making biodiesel from used grease from resturaunts and converting vehicles. Was very cool... thou if our country was to confront obesity we could have a serious problem!!!!! I'm thinking deep fat fryers are very important to this cycle.

greenjon · 04-07-2005, 03:11 PM

grease car sells the kit for $795. The guy you're talking about is actually selling his car on eBay right now.

I'm not a mechanic, but why would I have to pull the AC out?

I'm thinking about "swapping" the engine, (i know it's not that simple!). I'm also aware the computer would have to be re-programmed, and I'm sure that's not a small feat.

Maybe I should contact the Prius+ crew...

htmlspinnr · 04-07-2005, 03:56 PM

Honestly it's been shown that emissions wise, bio-diesel is not better than gasoline, and in some ways is worse than regular diesel.

The only benefit I could see would be the use of a more "renewable" resource.

naterprius · 04-07-2005, 04:01 PM

A. Biodiesel is not clean. Yes, you start with french fry grease or something but you have to add seriously toxic chemicals to it to make it engine ready.

B. Diesel engines require extreme strength and high compression. Even if you pulled off a conversion, the engine would tear itself apart from the force. Just ask anyone who ever bought a GM Diesel in the 80's. This was a converted gasoline engine that GM sold because they didn't believe it was worth developing a Diesel from the ground up in order to compete in what was a dying market. (Sound familiar?)

C. The price of Diesel is skyrocketing. Even if you pull off the conversion and everything works perfectly, your miles per dollar might even out.

Nate

gschoen · 04-07-2005, 04:51 PM

The Grease Car conversion link you posted only works for conventional diesel engines. A gasoline engine would be quickly ruined, and probably not even burn at all since it's ignition and fuel pumping systems aren't designed for thick, non-explosive oil fuels. You'd have to replace so much on a Prius you'd be left with the body, interior, and wheels.. hehe. A very intresting link for sure - someone with a diesel car could probably get free fuel for life from their next door resturaunt!

This type of conversion just uses filtered, used vegetable oils with no additives, except an optional one to prevent bacteria growth if stored. It has no sulfur (new diesel rules will be lower sulfur) so emissions are lower than regular diesel, I'm sure greater than gasoline since diesel cars don't have extensive pollution controls. It also has a closed carbon cycle so in general has a favorable environamentl impact compared to conventional diesel. Probably will never be available for a large scale since demand could soon outstrip supply. The places that haul grease filter and resell it to industries - right now it's price is garbage but could quickly become an expensive commodity! This seems to be the problem with a lot of renewable fuels - usually conventional works out cheaper, especially on a large scale.... perhaps if we added the costs of healthcare from pollution, military actions to secure supplies, environmental cleanup, etc. DIRECTLY to our gas prices and electric bills (while reducing taxes) all of a sudden conventional energy won't look so cheap anymore! (end editorializing)

I believe (not sure) biodiesel is developed to be produced on a mass scale either as an additive (like 10% ethanol) or exclusive/high percentage blend (like E85) and is engineered to more closely approximate diesel fuel so engines won't need conversion (at least at the low blends.. not sure about high blends). I think it is more expensive, or maybe about the same now that diesel has skyrocketed. Everything I've seen has shown pollution is comparable to lower sulfur diesel, certainly not as clean as gasoline (though we all know lots of improvements in diesel are possible were a few lobby groups to mysteriously vanish)

greenjon · 04-07-2005, 05:10 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius\";p=\"79441)</div>

Quote:

A. Biodiesel is not clean. Yes, you start with french fry grease or something but you have to add seriously toxic chemicals to it to make it engine ready.

B. Diesel engines require extreme strength and high compression. Even if you pulled off a conversion, the engine would tear itself apart from the force. Just ask anyone who ever bought a GM Diesel in the 80's. This was a converted gasoline engine that GM sold because they didn't believe it was worth developing a Diesel from the ground up in order to compete in what was a dying market. (Sound familiar?)

C. The price of Diesel is skyrocketing. Even if you pull off the conversion and everything works perfectly, your miles per dollar might even out.

Nate[/b]

A. My understanding is that 100% Biodiesel produces less unburned hydrocarbons then unleaded gas. Additives and chemicals in Biodiesel exists, but the net result is that it's better than for the environment then burning the same quantity in petro.

I'd only be using the Biodiesel in the car to get it "warmed-up" to the point it would be burning SVO / grease. Grease seems to be the most "green" fuel that any standard petro engine can burn.

Obviously, a natural gas, a pure flywheel, Stirling, hydroelectric, or solar engines would be even better)

B. I'd be looking for a replacement engine. I don't expect the stock Prius engine to handle the diesel. I'm sure it would be like Back to the Future III, when the Doc. tried to run the car off strong liquor.

C. If all went to plan, I'd only be using 100% Biodiesel for about 5mins. during start-up, so a gallon would last a LONG time.

I know this is a bit far fetched, but it seems possible in theory. According to all my research, even though Biodiesel isn't 100% clean, it's better then unleaded, gets better MPG, and allows easy conversion to grease which is ~99% clean. This route gives me 4 fuel options (Diesel, Biodiesel 80/20, Biodiesel 100, Grease.)

Taking all those factors in, the hybrid engine would stretch everything even further.

Maybe this is ahead of it's time???

greenjon · 04-07-2005, 05:13 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gschoen\";p=\"79455)</div>

Quote:

The Grease Car conversion link you posted only works for conventional diesel engines. A gasoline engine would be quickly ruined, and probably not even burn at all since it's ignition and fuel pumping systems aren't designed for thick, non-explosive oil fuels. You'd have to replace so much on a Prius you'd be left with the body, interior, and wheels.. hehe. A very intresting link for sure - someone with a diesel car could probably get free fuel for life from their next door resturaunt![/b]

My "proposal" would be to replace the stock engine of Prius w/ a proper diesel engine, re-program the computer, etc..

That to me, is the biggest hurdle in the "plan". Thoughts from a Prius mechanic maybe?

gschoen · 04-08-2005, 02:02 AM

Replacing the engine in the Prius would need more than a mechanic. You'd need an automotive and computer engineer to redeisng the entire thing. The operation of the engine is too integrated to HSD to allow exisiting components (ECU, PSD, MGs, etc.) These would have to be redesigned and replaced. MG1 would need to be bigger. I haven't heard of anyone doing rapid and frequent on/off of a diesel.. takes longer to start, so I guess MG2 would need to be more powerful to operate exclusively until ICE starts, so the battery probably needs more juice as well.

By the time you're done, you'd have eerything inside ripped out and be lucky to get the new stuff to fit (larger engine and MGs) It's not replacing an engine, it's designing a whole new car - whole new technology!

04-07-2005, 01:17 PM	#1
greenjon Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 6 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Engine Conversion ?? Unleaded Petroleum (petro) to diesel Recently my "tree hugging" gene which lay mostly dormant has awaken with fervor. I've been trying to figure out what I can do to make my new commute both more environmentally green, and save some of my money green. I've found and read alot about diesel engines being great for an easy green conversion. Biodiesel blends /pure are an immediate replacement w/o any impact on the engine. Throw in a grease diesel for SVO capabilities and you're hugging a forest. So, this leads me to my quest to the next level, getting a Prius, doing a diesel conversion, running off pure Biodiesel, and install the grease kit conversion. Anyone out there have any experience with this concept? knowledge of the Prius internals / engine and computer. Any shot of this being possible? a few thousand dollars is within "budget".

04-07-2005, 02:51 PM	#3
gschoen Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago/Wrigleyville Posts: 339 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	All of the conversions to biodiesels (or high blends) have been from conventional diesel engines. While anything is possible, this conversion is undoubtedly simpler than for gasoline engines (not sure I've heard of anyone doing that.. diesel engines are much more sturdy) and I believe the cost was around $1,000, but I don't remember. .. I think I saw it on the news about a guy/company who is making biodiesel from used grease from resturaunts and converting vehicles. Was very cool... thou if our country was to confront obesity we could have a serious problem!!!!! I'm thinking deep fat fryers are very important to this cycle. __________________ [hr:006c396a00]Black Pkg #6 Chicago/Wrigleyview

04-07-2005, 03:11 PM	#4
greenjon Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 6 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Re: Engine Conversion ?? Unleaded Petroleum (petro) to diese grease car sells the kit for $795. The guy you're talking about is actually selling his car on eBay right now. I'm not a mechanic, but why would I have to pull the AC out? I'm thinking about "swapping" the engine, (i know it's not that simple!). I'm also aware the computer would have to be re-programmed, and I'm sure that's not a small feat. Maybe I should contact the Prius+ crew...

04-07-2005, 04:01 PM	#6
naterprius Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,830 My Car: Other Non-Hybrid Package: N/A Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Re: Engine Conversion ?? Unleaded Petroleum (petro) to diese A. Biodiesel is not clean. Yes, you start with french fry grease or something but you have to add seriously toxic chemicals to it to make it engine ready. B. Diesel engines require extreme strength and high compression. Even if you pulled off a conversion, the engine would tear itself apart from the force. Just ask anyone who ever bought a GM Diesel in the 80's. This was a converted gasoline engine that GM sold because they didn't believe it was worth developing a Diesel from the ground up in order to compete in what was a dying market. (Sound familiar?) C. The price of Diesel is skyrocketing. Even if you pull off the conversion and everything works perfectly, your miles per dollar might even out. Nate

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04-07-2005, 02:42 PM	#2
Tempus Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,693 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: #9 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	I think its safe to say it's absolutely impossible if you're thinking you're going to get a diesel hybrid. If you are talking about ripping out all the internals of the Prius, including all the computers, brakes, steering gear, AC, etc etc, and replacing it all with conventional components, it would be only slightly less impossible. As far as cost to try it, I'd guess at least the cost of the car all over again.

04-07-2005, 03:56 PM	#5
htmlspinnr Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Surprise, AZ (Phoenix) Posts: 1,305 My Car: 2004 Prius Package: Pioneer #3 Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 1	Honestly it's been shown that emissions wise, bio-diesel is not better than gasoline, and in some ways is worse than regular diesel. The only benefit I could see would be the use of a more "renewable" resource.

04-07-2005, 04:51 PM	#7
gschoen Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago/Wrigleyville Posts: 339 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	The Grease Car conversion link you posted only works for conventional diesel engines. A gasoline engine would be quickly ruined, and probably not even burn at all since it's ignition and fuel pumping systems aren't designed for thick, non-explosive oil fuels. You'd have to replace so much on a Prius you'd be left with the body, interior, and wheels.. hehe. A very intresting link for sure - someone with a diesel car could probably get free fuel for life from their next door resturaunt! This type of conversion just uses filtered, used vegetable oils with no additives, except an optional one to prevent bacteria growth if stored. It has no sulfur (new diesel rules will be lower sulfur) so emissions are lower than regular diesel, I'm sure greater than gasoline since diesel cars don't have extensive pollution controls. It also has a closed carbon cycle so in general has a favorable environamentl impact compared to conventional diesel. Probably will never be available for a large scale since demand could soon outstrip supply. The places that haul grease filter and resell it to industries - right now it's price is garbage but could quickly become an expensive commodity! This seems to be the problem with a lot of renewable fuels - usually conventional works out cheaper, especially on a large scale.... perhaps if we added the costs of healthcare from pollution, military actions to secure supplies, environmental cleanup, etc. DIRECTLY to our gas prices and electric bills (while reducing taxes) all of a sudden conventional energy won't look so cheap anymore! (end editorializing) I believe (not sure) biodiesel is developed to be produced on a mass scale either as an additive (like 10% ethanol) or exclusive/high percentage blend (like E85) and is engineered to more closely approximate diesel fuel so engines won't need conversion (at least at the low blends.. not sure about high blends). I think it is more expensive, or maybe about the same now that diesel has skyrocketed. Everything I've seen has shown pollution is comparable to lower sulfur diesel, certainly not as clean as gasoline (though we all know lots of improvements in diesel are possible were a few lobby groups to mysteriously vanish)

04-08-2005, 02:02 AM	#10
gschoen Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago/Wrigleyville Posts: 339 My Car: Package: Nominated 0 Times in 0 Posts TOTM Awards: 0 Friends: 0	Replacing the engine in the Prius would need more than a mechanic. You'd need an automotive and computer engineer to redeisng the entire thing. The operation of the engine is too integrated to HSD to allow exisiting components (ECU, PSD, MGs, etc.) These would have to be redesigned and replaced. MG1 would need to be bigger. I haven't heard of anyone doing rapid and frequent on/off of a diesel.. takes longer to start, so I guess MG2 would need to be more powerful to operate exclusively until ICE starts, so the battery probably needs more juice as well. By the time you're done, you'd have eerything inside ripped out and be lucky to get the new stuff to fit (larger engine and MGs) It's not replacing an engine, it's designing a whole new car - whole new technology!