Anyone else have a PHEV system from Jungle Motors?

[andrasachs]

Andrew,

I have driven my prius for over 1 1/2 years...and have not experienced any problems at all...in fact... I LOVED IT... The plug in Supply kit worked great and I almost never had to fill up my tank...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...but if the car really had issues as per your email...I would not be investing my retirement into plug in hybrids. I am a saavy and experienced business woman...and I give kudos to Plug In Supply (now Plug In Coversions) and their ability to do what none of the car manufacturers seem to be doing... We are using Lithium Phosphate Batteries...and they have an approx lifetime of 10 years... I love the kits...and I challenge anyone who like yourself that seems to think it has a downside...

If you can make a better kit...so be it...DO IT and put your money where your mouth is...

I LOVE MY KIT...and am excited about modifying the kits for Ford Escape, Toyota Camry, and Toyota ...

We can do what the BIG GUYS CANNOT and are PROUD OF IT...

Originally Posted by linuxpenguin

Hi Nirmala,

I believe the PHEV conversion from Jungle Motors is the CalCars style conversion from Plugin Supply. I have had experience with CalCars style systems yes. Basically it uses contactors to parallel the auxiliary battery pack (240v pack that sits over the rear tire-well) with the OEM battery pack allowing massive energy transfer (upwards of 130 amps for brief pulses) between the two. There is some discussion as to whether or not this damages the batteries though I can tell you for sure it isn't good for them. I definitely noticed degraded performance from my OEM battery after removing that system though I can't say definitively that that was the culprit.

Lead acid batteries tend to last only a couple months in a PHEV environment. The best I saw was about 4-6 months before their performance was seriously degraded (capacity reduced to about 5 miles...). With the price of lead on the rise--longevity is something you may want to consider, especially if you don't want to be replacing your batteries often. I don't believe the batteries come with any warranty, though I could be wrong about that.

The EV mode that that system uses is something called Forced Stealth mode--which for those of you who have already heard my rants--I'll spare you the long version and give you the synopsis. Basically it forces the car into thinking something terrible has happened to the engine and the car completely disables the engine until you turn the car off and on again. This clears all emissions related data your vehicle has stored as well as any trouble codes (for dealers) and engine learned values (eg: data that your engine has learned about fuel injection to give you a smoother ride). It also means that if you really need acceleration (say to get out of the way of a car) you're stuck with the limited electric power of the vehicle. In essence, it's a safety hazard in more than one way--and there have been several tests done by reputable laboratories that suggest the forced stealth approach may cause the motors to over-rev resulting in long-term damage.

Now, you could just drive the car normally without using this forced stealth mode and still get good mileage. Toyota made the car with a low speed EV mode that allows you to go up to 34 MPH without any of the problems mentioned above. I believe it's possible to specify which version of EV mode you want when purchasing it--I would suggest the OEM Toyota mode.

In summary:

Pros:
Cheap overall system (depending on longevity of your batteries). Replacement batteries cost roughly in the $500-$700 range depending on where (and when) you buy them.

Automatic (assuming you aren't using forced stealth)--requiring little to no driver interaction besides plugging it in. When not in EV mode the vehicle still uses more battery energy than it otherwise would.

Access to spare tire (assuming you get the latest version with mechanical lifts).

High energy transfer (110+ amp transfer compared to other systems such as the Enginer system which can only transfer about 12 amps--though again, this comes at the cost of degrading your OEM battery).

Cons:
Lead acid batteries need to be replaced

Possible (likely) reduction in OEM battery life due to high current transfers

Poor crash safety (the box is securely fastened, but it's 350 pounds of lead in a steel box that probably isn't quite strong enough).

Extra Weight (batteries weigh upwards of 350 pounds...you'll need to upgrade your rear suspension and make sure you get your tires rotated when you should).

Poor quality charger (I'm not sure what chargers are being used these days, but that conversion has a history of poorly manufactured chargers)

---

Additional notes:
If you do buy this system, be careful not to let the batteries get too out of sync. Since the system does not come with a BMS (battery management system to keep the batteries roughly charged the same) the batteries can get slightly out of balance with each other over time which can significantly reduce the lifespan of them (EG: one or two batteries get pulled down a lot further than the others to the point where I observed the polarity of the battery terminals actually switched...that was not a pretty day). Some chargers will pulse-charge at the end to attempt to balance lead acid batteries but others (namely the cheaper chargers) may not.

Safety tips:
The CalCars style system is unique in the sense that if it fails (that is, fails with the contactors in the on position) it's possible that the auxiliary battery will overcharge the main Prius battery potentially resulting in a disaster. You may wish to purchase a ScanGauge or similar tool to monitor the charge percentage of the Prius battery regularly to avoid such problems.

Hope that helps,
Andrew

[andrasachs]

Excuse my last email and quote. oops.....I mistyped...meant to say...Plug In Solutions Inc. pluginsolutions.com

We have some very exciting new kits coming out...
Ford Escape, Camry, Highlander, Ford Fusion....etc...

I welcome all comments on our kits... so far they have all been good...

Andra

Originally Posted by linuxpenguin

Ah, I just re-read your post and see now that you bought a car with the lead acid PHEV system already installed--well hopefully my comments will help you understand better how your system works =).

Andrew

[Nirmalanow]

I emailed Robb who designed the Plug-In supply system and he gave me some more info and his perspective on things, which I will paraphrase here:

1- He is not concerned about the flow of energy to the stock battery. he says it does not cause problems and has not caused problems in the over 100 systems he has installed.

2-He says any necessary computer codes that are lost when switching into EV mode will come back immediately if there is a repair problem the dealer needs to know about, and that the fuel system learns what it needs in just a few seconds.

3-He has not seen a lead acid pack get unbalanced to a degree that is a problem. Says it just does not happen. He thinks the reports of this may be due to someone experimenting and adding a small load to just one of the batteries. And this is of course based on his experience with the specific batteries they are using.

4- Regarding the electric motor over-reving in EV mode, he says, The electric motor has a red line of 10,000 rpm. It spins at 7,700 rpm at 52 mph

5-Regarding the idea of a failure due to the contactors being stuck, he said that two separate contactors would both have to fail in the same position at the same time, and that even then the two battery packs are close enough in voltage for there to not be a problem.

Once again, it is his perspective on his own system, and also a perspective based on his actual experience with this particular system and the many working versions out there.

I do plan on upgrading to the lithium batteries someday. With those in place this car should serve my needs very well, although it is working fine right now with the lead acid batteries. And even with the added cost of the lithium replacements (About $4000 total including BMS, and who knows maybe cheaper in the future if prices drop) I will have gotten what I consider to be a good deal. I did not want to wait a few more years for a $40,000 plug in hybrid from an auto manufacturer.