Anyone else have a PHEV system from Jungle Motors?

[Nirmalanow]

Hi All, I am new to this forum and I just bought a 2005 Prius with a lead acid PHEV system already installed from Jungle motors in So. Cal.
It allows me to select EV mode for about 12 miles or use the supplemental battery to enhance hybrid mode for longer trips.
Just wonder if anyone else has experience with this system, and if you have any tips or pointers for a complete beginner to the PHEV experience.
Thanks,
Nirmala

[linuxpenguin]

Originally Posted by Nirmalanow

Hi All, I am new to this forum and I just bought a 2005 Prius with a lead acid PHEV system already installed from Jungle motors in So. Cal.
It allows me to select EV mode for about 12 miles or use the supplemental battery to enhance hybrid mode for longer trips.
Just wonder if anyone else has experience with this system, and if you have any tips or pointers for a complete beginner to the PHEV experience.
Thanks,
Nirmala

Hi Nirmala,

I believe the PHEV conversion from Jungle Motors is the CalCars style conversion from Plugin Supply. I have had experience with CalCars style systems yes. Basically it uses contactors to parallel the auxiliary battery pack (240v pack that sits over the rear tire-well) with the OEM battery pack allowing massive energy transfer (upwards of 130 amps for brief pulses) between the two. There is some discussion as to whether or not this damages the batteries though I can tell you for sure it isn't good for them. I definitely noticed degraded performance from my OEM battery after removing that system though I can't say definitively that that was the culprit.

Lead acid batteries tend to last only a couple months in a PHEV environment. The best I saw was about 4-6 months before their performance was seriously degraded (capacity reduced to about 5 miles...). With the price of lead on the rise--longevity is something you may want to consider, especially if you don't want to be replacing your batteries often. I don't believe the batteries come with any warranty, though I could be wrong about that.

The EV mode that that system uses is something called Forced Stealth mode--which for those of you who have already heard my rants--I'll spare you the long version and give you the synopsis. Basically it forces the car into thinking something terrible has happened to the engine and the car completely disables the engine until you turn the car off and on again. This clears all emissions related data your vehicle has stored as well as any trouble codes (for dealers) and engine learned values (eg: data that your engine has learned about fuel injection to give you a smoother ride). It also means that if you really need acceleration (say to get out of the way of a car) you're stuck with the limited electric power of the vehicle. In essence, it's a safety hazard in more than one way--and there have been several tests done by reputable laboratories that suggest the forced stealth approach may cause the motors to over-rev resulting in long-term damage.

Now, you could just drive the car normally without using this forced stealth mode and still get good mileage. Toyota made the car with a low speed EV mode that allows you to go up to 34 MPH without any of the problems mentioned above. I believe it's possible to specify which version of EV mode you want when purchasing it--I would suggest the OEM Toyota mode.

In summary:

Pros:
Cheap overall system (depending on longevity of your batteries). Replacement batteries cost roughly in the $500-$700 range depending on where (and when) you buy them.

Automatic (assuming you aren't using forced stealth)--requiring little to no driver interaction besides plugging it in. When not in EV mode the vehicle still uses more battery energy than it otherwise would.

Access to spare tire (assuming you get the latest version with mechanical lifts).

High energy transfer (110+ amp transfer compared to other systems such as the Enginer system which can only transfer about 12 amps--though again, this comes at the cost of degrading your OEM battery).

Cons:
Lead acid batteries need to be replaced

Possible (likely) reduction in OEM battery life due to high current transfers

Poor crash safety (the box is securely fastened, but it's 350 pounds of lead in a steel box that probably isn't quite strong enough).

Extra Weight (batteries weigh upwards of 350 pounds...you'll need to upgrade your rear suspension and make sure you get your tires rotated when you should).

Poor quality charger (I'm not sure what chargers are being used these days, but that conversion has a history of poorly manufactured chargers)

---

Additional notes:
If you do buy this system, be careful not to let the batteries get too out of sync. Since the system does not come with a BMS (battery management system to keep the batteries roughly charged the same) the batteries can get slightly out of balance with each other over time which can significantly reduce the lifespan of them (EG: one or two batteries get pulled down a lot further than the others to the point where I observed the polarity of the battery terminals actually switched...that was not a pretty day). Some chargers will pulse-charge at the end to attempt to balance lead acid batteries but others (namely the cheaper chargers) may not.

Safety tips:
The CalCars style system is unique in the sense that if it fails (that is, fails with the contactors in the on position) it's possible that the auxiliary battery will overcharge the main Prius battery potentially resulting in a disaster. You may wish to purchase a ScanGauge or similar tool to monitor the charge percentage of the Prius battery regularly to avoid such problems.

Hope that helps,
Andrew

[linuxpenguin]

Ah, I just re-read your post and see now that you bought a car with the lead acid PHEV system already installed--well hopefully my comments will help you understand better how your system works =).

Andrew

[Nirmalanow]

HI Andrew,

Wow. Thanks for all of that info, although I now wished I had read up some more before buying their system.

But since I have it already, your post makes me think I should immediately upgrade to the lithium batteries (which is possible with this system) and also only use my system in what plugin supply calls enhanced mode as described on this webpage:
pluginsupply.com/operation.htm
I think this is what you meant by using the OEM Toyota EV mode.

The two other concerns you raised that I may want to address are the quality of the charger and the danger you mention of the auxiliary battery overcharging the OEM battery.

You mention using a scan gauge. Where would I get something like this, and what exactly does it tell me? And what would I do if I saw an overcharge situation? The car does have a switch that disconnects the Plugin Supply system entirely from the car and puts it back into pure OEM mode.

So if I had lithium batteries with a BMS system and only used enhanced mode (avoiding pure EV mode), plus installed a Scan Gauge and maybe even an upgraded charger, would I thereby avoid most of the potential problems you have mentioned?

Again thank you for your perspective.

Nirmala

[Nirmalanow]

I would also add that I believe the smaller lithium battery pack that Plug-In Supply/Jungle Motors offers fits into the same case as the lead acid batteries I have, but of course weighs much less which should also reduce the concerns about the extreme weight of the battery pack.

Also I wonder if the EV only mode might be OK if I never go over 35-40 mph? I do most of my driving around town at low speeds. Of course there would still be the problems you mention of clearing the codes and also safety due to reduced acceleration. But at least I would avoid over-reving the electric motor.

If I were to try instead to just maximize my mileage by using the enhanced mode (what you called Toyota EV mode) even in my short distance around town driving, how do I keep the car in pure EV mode? Does that require me to change my driving habits (i.e. accelerate slowly whenever possible) so that the car does not turn on the ICE?

Thanks again for all the info. I have contacted Jungle Motors and asked them to comment on your post. I will share anything I learn from them here also. For instance, maybe they have already upgraded the chargers they are using, if there were lots of problems earlier.

[sub3marathonman]

Originally Posted by linuxpenguin

Lead acid batteries tend to last only a couple months in a PHEV environment. The best I saw was about 4-6 months before their performance was seriously degraded (capacity reduced to about 5 miles...). With the price of lead on the rise--longevity is something you may want to consider, especially if you don't want to be replacing your batteries often.

Andrew

It may be 4-6 months, but that really depends on how the batteries are used. The data posted by Cheap! at:

Costs of a PHEV system.

Quoting: My pack cost me $900 and I got 300 cycles out of it. (I was lucky because most people would only get 200 cycles.) That is a battery cost of $3.00 per cycle. I got between 15 EV miles per charge with new batteries, and 6 EV miles per charge at the end of its life. That is an average of 10.5 miles for each cycle. That means my battery cost was $3.00 for every 10.5 miles, or a "battery only cost" of "$.285714" per EV mile.

So maybe the real consideration is the "battery only cost" of each EV mile. I know I wouldn't be replacing a PbA pack just on the possibility that prices will go up in six months. It may be that the price of the alternatives comes down in that time period too, or maybe not, nobody really knows. But if you use the PbA pack prudently, with about 30% maximum DOD, you should be very happy for a fair amount of time, but I would say definitely longer than 2 months unless you're recharging 5 times per day. And even 200 days gives a bit longer than six months at once per day, and with prudent use maybe even around 9 months.

[linuxpenguin]

Originally Posted by Nirmalanow

I would also add that I believe the smaller lithium battery pack that Plug-In Supply/Jungle Motors offers fits into the same case as the lead acid batteries I have, but of course weighs much less which should also reduce the concerns about the extreme weight of the battery pack.

Also I wonder if the EV only mode might be OK if I never go over 35-40 mph? I do most of my driving around town at low speeds. Of course there would still be the problems you mention of clearing the codes and also safety due to reduced acceleration. But at least I would avoid over-reving the electric motor.

If I were to try instead to just maximize my mileage by using the enhanced mode (what you called Toyota EV mode) even in my short distance around town driving, how do I keep the car in pure EV mode? Does that require me to change my driving habits (i.e. accelerate slowly whenever possible) so that the car does not turn on the ICE?

Thanks again for all the info. I have contacted Jungle Motors and asked them to comment on your post. I will share anything I learn from them here also. For instance, maybe they have already upgraded the chargers they are using, if there were lots of problems earlier.

Hi,

I'll do my best to address your responses in order.

EV Mode:
You had asked if the enhanced mode mentioned uses the OEM Toyota EV mode--and yes, it does use the OEM Toyota EV mode which tries you keep the gasoline engine off as much as possible while under 34 MPH. I believe the most recent versions of the system require the gasoline engine to warm up before allowing EV mode for CARB (California Air and Resource Board) approval. Interestingly enough, using EV mode without letting the gasoline engine warmup first will actually significantly increase the emissions of your vehicle when the gasoline engine eventually does turn on because more power is being demanded from it.

If you only want EV behavior while the vehicle is below 34 MPH then you'll be fine with the default enhanced mode which is completely automatic. This way you avoid all the other issues that forced stealth mode raises while still getting good mileage.

Driving habits:
You will need to modify your driving habits slightly to get better mileage yes. The big thing is that your mileage will be significantly higher if you stay below 34 MPH because it can utilize the OEM toyota EV mode. At higher speeds you will find that your mileage will increase if you pulse (that is, accelerate harder) with the gasoline engine up to speed and then glide (that is, remove your foot from the accelerator and lightly put it back on) which should result in the gasoline engine either turning off or going into an idle mode where less gasoline is burned. This works because the gasoline engine is more efficient at higher load and is significantly less efficient when it is "idling" where the electric motors are more efficient.

Expectations:
Don't expect to see insane mileage at over 34 MPH speeds. Many people buy PHEVs with the expectation of 100+ MPG at all speeds and are disappointed when they only see 80 MPG tank averages. Mileage is heavily impacted based on your speed, temperature of the batteries and other driving habits. Unless you get really good at the pulse and glide method and other tricks, you probably will only see in the 80 MPG average range at over 34 MPH. You also are likely to see lower mileage over short trips since the gasoline engine burns a lot of fuel in the warmup stage.

Also, base your numbers and figures on tank averages instead of trip averages. Some trips are going to return lower mileage while others will return higher. It irks me when people reset their mileage counter, drive 5 miles and then post pictures of their MFD saying they are getting 152 MPG when they really are not.

Lithium Ion Batteries:
I know there are two lithium ion battery systems offered by Plugin Supply--one which may fit in the lead acid box and one which certainly won't fit (the 5 and 10 kw packs respectively). Assuming you are looking at the 5kwhr battery, that would be a significant improvement over lead acid yes. The lower weight and higher battery performance alone is probably worth the upgrade cost. I'm not sure what brand batteries they are using for the 5kwhr system these days but the battery life should be significantly more than what you would see with lead acid (and they are much better in the cold). You'll have to ask them what the life-expectancy of the batteries are though take the factory provided info with a grain of salt--it's in their best interest to make their battery look as good on paper as possible. Given the intense discharge pulses that the batteries will see you can safely assume they won't be in the most ideal circumstances for battery longevity.

Warranty:
I know Plugin Supply offers a limited warranty on the system (box, charger, control electronics), but I don't believe they offer a warranty on the batteries. I think they say that is up to the factory to warranty the batteries--but I'm not sure the factory actually does provide warranties. You should check with the manufacturer about this since those are a lot more expensive to replace than lead acid.

Scan Gauge:
Scan gauge is a relatively low cost utility that you can purchase from lots of online retailers (probably ebay too) that's roughly $160. Scangauge allows you to see data regarding the battery state of charge (that is, the Prius OEM battery), voltage and current. This certainly isn't necessary as the majority of the system is automatic, but it does help you know what the rough state of charge of the OEM battery is. Since the vehicle will attempt to spoof the car into thinking it has a significantly higher state of charge than it really does, it's impossible to tell what the state of charge /really is/ without a scan-gauge type tool. In the event of a system failure (say, one of the contactors got stuck on somehow) a quick eye might be able to identify the problem and quickly kill the system before the batteries get too over-charged. CANVIEW is another tool that you might be interested in--courtesy of Norm from CAN-view index. Now, if the contactors fail while the vehicle is charging--well, not much you can do about that. I know there are safety circuits on the control electronics to prevent such problems, but if a contactor were to physically get stuck on, there's not much you can do to protect against that.

Charger:
I think they use a Kingpan charger now adays which is a cheap Chinese made charger that I observed caused massive sparks when plugging it in due to a lack of inrush limiting and overheated a fair amount. I'm assuming they have improved on the design since then, but I don't think I was the first to notice that the chargers failed (that is, completely stopped working) much sooner than they should have--not to mention took a chunk out of my power cord... I think I went through three chargers or so over a 1 year period.

Anyway, these are some things to think about. I'm not trying to influence you to upgrade or not to upgrade, I'm just trying to provide some helpful insights. Hope it's helpful.

Andrew

[linuxpenguin]

Originally Posted by sub3marathonman

It may be 4-6 months, but that really depends on how the batteries are used. The data posted by Cheap! at:

Costs of a PHEV system.

Quoting: My pack cost me $900 and I got 300 cycles out of it. (I was lucky because most people would only get 200 cycles.) That is a battery cost of $3.00 per cycle. I got between 15 EV miles per charge with new batteries, and 6 EV miles per charge at the end of its life. That is an average of 10.5 miles for each cycle. That means my battery cost was $3.00 for every 10.5 miles, or a "battery only cost" of "$.285714" per EV mile.

So maybe the real consideration is the "battery only cost" of each EV mile. I know I wouldn't be replacing a PbA pack just on the possibility that prices will go up in six months. It may be that the price of the alternatives comes down in that time period too, or maybe not, nobody really knows. But if you use the PbA pack prudently, with about 30% maximum DOD, you should be very happy for a fair amount of time, but I would say definitely longer than 2 months unless you're recharging 5 times per day. And even 200 days gives a bit longer than six months at once per day, and with prudent use maybe even around 9 months.

You are very correct when you say it depends heavily on how you use them. It also depends on how frequently you charge. Lead acid batteries get damaged if you leave them discharged for too long. They also have a shelf life to consider--even if you don't use them often the performance will degrade over time.

Living in a cold environment is also not good for lead acid. In addition to the obvious issue with drawing unregulated large current from a freezing cold battery, the cells can become unbalanced much quicker due to the different internal resistance among cells. Lead acid batteries become more efficient (lower internal resistance) the warmer they get (within reason of course) and thus they will have a higher overall capacity. If the batteries along the outside (closest to the air intake perhaps) get warmer quicker because of the ambient cabin air (or exhaust from the charger) these cells will retain a higher state of charge during charge and discharge. Even if you have no air circulation at all for your batteries, there is no way to enforce a standardized temperature throughout all the batteries.

This means the colder cells will retain a lower state of charge and become out of sync with the rest. The result (over time) is that the cells toward the middle of the pack become significantly weaker because the pack continues to deplete until the cells on the outside (with the higher capacity) are empty.

This can cause the weaker batteries to actually start leaking acid even though they are technically sealed. I even saw one instance where the polarity of the battery terminals switched because it got so over-discharged. It generally isn't pretty.

I suppose this problem could be partly avoided with a BMS for the lead acid batteries, but it seems kind of pointless for a $900 BMS to protect $600 worth of batteries...The whole point of lead acid is that they are cheap.

Andrew

[Nirmalanow]

Thank you again Andrew for all of the info. I will have to ponder all of this and also see what Jungle Motors (which is the same people as Plug-In Supply) says about your perspective on their system.

I also may wait a while and see how the lead batteries work for me. I do most of my driving at low speeds around town and in short 2-3 mile trips that I could recharge again immediately afterwards (since I work at home, and so am coming back home after running errands). So the batteries will not get deeply discharged often. I also live in Sedona which is a warm climate, and we keep the car in a garage so even in the winter the batteries would rarely be very cold.

I just drove around a bit and found it pretty challenging to keep the car in pure EV mode when using the enhanced mode setting. I really like the idea of not turning on the engine at all for short trips, so I may still used the forced stealth mode for very short trips at low speeds (below 35 mph). And then use the enhanced mode for any other trips. We do not have emissions testing here, so I would not have to worry about losing those codes.

And then when the lead batteries start to fade, I can spend the money for lithium replacements at that time. My hope would be that the lead batteries last a little longer given the way I will use them.

It does appear to be a Kingpan charger, but I have not noticed any sparks when I plug the car in. Maybe they have improved that part of the charger function.

Again thanks, I am in your debt for helping educate me.

[linuxpenguin]

Originally Posted by Nirmalanow

Thank you again Andrew for all of the info. I will have to ponder all of this and also see what Jungle Motors (which is the same people as Plug-In Supply) says about your perspective on their system.

I also may wait a while and see how the lead batteries work for me. I do most of my driving at low speeds around town and in short 2-3 mile trips that I could recharge again immediately afterwards (since I work at home, and so am coming back home after running errands). So the batteries will not get deeply discharged often. I also live in Sedona which is a warm climate, and we keep the car in a garage so even in the winter the batteries would rarely be very cold.

I just drove around a bit and found it pretty challenging to keep the car in pure EV mode when using the enhanced mode setting. I really like the idea of not turning on the engine at all for short trips, so I may still used the forced stealth mode for very short trips at low speeds (below 35 mph). And then use the enhanced mode for any other trips. We do not have emissions testing here, so I would not have to worry about losing those codes.

And then when the lead batteries start to fade, I can spend the money for lithium replacements at that time. My hope would be that the lead batteries last a little longer given the way I will use them.

It does appear to be a Kingpan charger, but I have not noticed any sparks when I plug the car in. Maybe they have improved that part of the charger function.

Again thanks, I am in your debt for helping educate me.

You are welcome. Again, I'm not trying to say "buy this" or "don't buy this" I'm simply sharing my experiences with said system. Since you already bought the lead acid, yeah I think it makes sense to wait until they die to consider you're alternatives since for the moment the upgrade to lithium is space-compatible.

As for forced stealth--it's more about safety than speed (not having power when you need it). The over-revving condition on the motors starts once you pass around 41 MPH without running the gasoline engine (the way the Prius drivetrain is designed, the gasoline engine must be spinning at > 41 MPH speeds to keep MG2 within rated RPM limits). Clearing the accumulated engine data (every time forced stealth is used) can result in rougher rides as the engine has to re-collect calibration data.

I'm glad to hear they fixed the inrush problem with the charger (or so it would seem). My charger sounded like dynamite the first time I plugged it in...

Andrew