Thinking of converting to PHEV

[f16bmathis]

Originally Posted by dan2l

There are plenty of other threads that talk about the cost of electricity. The problem is that it is different for everyone and the calculations depend on your assumptions.

For me the cost of electricity is less than 1/2 of what you quote. So clearly you and I have differing opinions of what assumptions to use.

So,.. I think that your publishing what you get is fine,... But I am fearful that your discussion will degenerate into an argument because of bad assumptions.

Thanks,
Dan

Dan, don't want arguments, just better fuel efficiency! My electric is mostly solar, so assume it costs me nearly nothing, oh wait, had to pay for that solar system! SO lets not hide the fact that the average person will be filling up the PHEV with about 1 kw for a 2 kw PHEV. Still, at my rate 11.9 cents to go 4 miles pure electric is a deal! Assuming the data I have so far continues, and the gas savings in stage 4 makes it even better.

Back to topic, the PHEV kits save gas.

[SomeRandomIdiot]

I am in the same situation as the OP. I have a 2009 with ultra-low miles, has not lost hardly any value - in fact it looks like i could get back over 66% of the total 33 monthly payments I have made on the lease if I sold the car right now....insane.

Anyway, I am waivering on the fence about ordering a 2012 PiP come Thursday as 1) The do not have black 2) The interior (Dark Gray) is a killer for hot climate Summers with temps in the high 80s-90-100+ degree areas and 3) They are not selling the car in the Southeast.

As I am happy with my 2009 Touring Model decked out as it is, I am looking at the aftermarket for a proven system. Months ago I saw 2 companies on this forum and bookmarked them - only I cannot find them now

I am not a do it yourself person - and one of the links had a place within 30 miles of me that did conversions.

I see lists of scam/beware companies - could someone point me to the list of reputable systems that have places around the country that can do this type of conversion?

Thanks!

[bisco]

i just don't think anyone has a true turnkey system like you're gonna get with the pip.

[Randy B]

Originally Posted by bisco

i just don't think anyone has a true turnkey system like you're gonna get with the pip.

Couple of comments on PHEV kits:
Payback. Long time on gas savings alone. But keep your Prius for 2-4 more years with the kit and the ownership savings will pay for it.
Any kit purchase vs a new car is instant payback.
Also, ain't no payback on a convertible.. but the ride is great. Same here.

Reliability. The PiP will likely be wonderfully reliable. The PSI kit is likely next best, and Enginer is 3rd. Different prices.

[miscrms]

Just a few quick thoughts. IMHO most people think about plugins completely backwards. They desire an all electric range that exceeds their normal daily routine, but then complain about the cost. IMHO this is also exactly the kind of thinking that ran the Chevy Volt aground. 40 mile electric range sounds great until you have to do a bunch of corner cutting just to keep the cost to $40k.

Instead I would challenge people to think of a plugin hybrids this way. First we'll start with a few simplifying assumptions.
1) Battery cost will continue to dominate the price of PHEV and BEV systems for the near future.
2) The cost of a system will scale roughly linearly with its range.
3) Electric miles are cheaper than gas miles. Here in Phoenix its ~2-3c per mile vs. 7-8c per mile.

Given those assumptions I would assert the following. Every time you recharge before your battery is completely depleted, or skip an opportunity to recharge you have wasted money on battery capacity you didn't need to achieve the same gasoline offset and savings. This line of thinking drives exactly the opposite conclusion that most people reach regarding PHEVs. For maximum cost efficiency your PHEV battery should be no larger than your shortest typical trip before being able to recharge. Smaller will still achieve the same cost efficiency, it just won't maximize your potential gasoline offset. But its still better than not doing anything.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to get as many electric miles in as possible. For some people the additional benefits of having a larger battery will outweigh the additional cost. But I believe that in general maximizing the cost efficiency through smaller, cheaper PHEV systems will be key to getting as many PHEVs on the road as possible, which in turn will offset the most number of gallons of gasoline possible in the short term and drive the kind of battery sales volumes needed to make longer range PHEVs and BEVs more economically feasible down the road.

The argument is roughly the same for BEVs vs. PHEVs as for off grid vs. grid tied solar. In an off grid system you have little choice but to size the system to deliver your entire normal load plus some to fill extra battery capacity to get through cloudy days etc. In many ways the push for grid tied systems revolutionized residential solar PV market in the same way PHEVs are revolutionizing the electric vehicle market. Now you can put up a smaller solar array, and have the grid supply the whatever else you need. Your return on the solar investment is at a maximum up to the point where your solar production starts to exceed your demand. The analogy gets a little different here, as with most net metering agreements the utility will at least average out your usage/production over the course of the year, but without that the same would be true. Every day you made more electricity than you needed you would have put more money into the solar array than you needed to in order to achieve the same utility offset, reducing your overall cost efficiency. With net metering the same is still true if your average daily production exceeds your average daily consumption.

In the same way grid-tie and net metering are making solar accessible to more people, and every kW someone puts on their roof helps just as much whether its part of a small system that only covers part of their individual usage or a giant off grid system. Its still less coal, or natural gas, or whatever being burned.

[miscrms]

Originally Posted by Joyce

I'm in Massachusetts, and have a 2009 Prius. We were looking at the information on the 2012 Plug-in models, but can't see buying a new car to gain 15 miles of electric driving per charge. We are now looking into an Enginer conversion kit (installed) to get close to 100mpg.

My daily commute is 13 miles each way, non-highway. I am currently getting 47-49 mpg.

Does this seem like a reasonable purchase? Sure, it will take a few years to recover my investment (about $3500?), but I will be driving a clean car, which is important to us.

Any thoughts?

Even the smaller 4kW PIS system might get you where you want to be, without costing too much more than the Enginer. You could likely get all the way to work in high speed EV mode, and then return home in blended mode. MPGs should be nearly infinte on the way in, and 50-60 on the way back with an overall average over 100mpg for the round trip commute.

The new PiP might actually do just about as well, although without the high speed EV mode and due to cold winter temps it might be lower overall. Have to wait and see.

[miscrms]

Originally Posted by cyclopathic

sounds like marketing BS; you get 2-3mi per kW, YMMV

I think you may be confusing AC and DC efficiency here. Take for example the original EV-1.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf

DC Efficiency in the driving cycle test was found to be 179Wh/mi or ~5.6 mi/kWh. AC efficiency, which includes charging efficiency was 373Wh/mi, or ~2.7 Wh/mi. The DC efficiency is whats relevant to range for a given battery capacity. The Prius is a somewhat bigger, heavier car but should still be in the 200-250Wh DC per mile, or 4-5 miles per DC kWh. That of course has to be used with the actual useable capacity of the battery, not just its raw capacity.

[usnavystgc]

Originally Posted by miscrms

I think you may be confusing AC and DC efficiency here. Take for example the original EV-1.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf

DC Efficiency in the driving cycle test was found to be 179Wh/mi or ~5.6 mi/kWh. AC efficiency, which includes charging efficiency was 373Wh/mi, or ~2.7 Wh/mi. The DC efficiency is whats relevant to range for a given battery capacity. The Prius is a somewhat bigger, heavier car but should still be in the 200-250Wh DC per mile, or 4-5 miles per DC kWh. That of course has to be used with the actual useable capacity of the battery, not just its raw capacity.

You guys are talking so far above my head, my brain is hurting just reading this . You have to remember, I'm from KY.

[Flying White Dutchman]

the EV 1 is a way below 40k car.. or am i wrong?

build a new EV1 the EV2 ;-) and you have a best seller 100+ miles

[bisco]

what's above my head is why someone starts a thread and then never responds to any of the replies.