Officially, official: Tesla gets $465m in loans from the DOE to build Model S, EV powertrains

[cwerdna]

Officially, official: Tesla gets $465m in loans from the DOE to build Model S, EV powertrains

[daniel]

That's good news!!!

[F8L]

That is crazy. I figured that car was a complete pipe dream.

Hopefully this will set the stage for affordable EVs too. Not everyone is going to be able to afford the Model S.

[efusco]

My current sequence number (R77) suggests I'll get one of the first 200 produced. This news is VERY reassuring that the Model S...and eventually the Blue Star will be a reality!

[cycledrum]

Ok, this is good news, but I have some questions. Kind of a 'pointed' questions though ....

* How long is the 'S's battery warrantied for? What about Roadster battery?

* What is the projected replacement cost for the battery?

* What is the life expectancy for the battery?

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I'm not against electric cars, I think the questions above are key ones. The battery is 'the engine' of an electric car.

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I visited a Tesla dealer in Menlo Park. I vaguely recall the basic battery warranty was 3 years. I believe it cost additional thousands for each extra year of warranty. And I would imagine the battery is seriously expensive in the Tesla.

I would like to know some hard numbers on these issues.

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Or perhaps I'm not getting it, and these cars are intended for the very affluent where $60k cars and $15k batteries are spare change.

[daniel]

Originally Posted by cycledrum

Ok, this is good news, but I have some questions. Kind of a 'pointed' questions though ....

* How long is the 'S's battery warrantied for? What about Roadster battery?

* What is the projected replacement cost for the battery?

* What is the life expectancy for the battery?

Your questions are very legitimate (though I would characterize the battery as the "gas tank" rather than the "engine.") Battery technology is without any doubt the sticking point or bottleneck in EV technology. Electric motors are far superior in every respect to ICEs. Control circuitry is trivial for a big company, with modern computing power. But energy storage is the big problem.

The Tesla Roadster is aimed at very rich people with big bucks to burn. That was intentional. It was the only way for a small company to get started, and a very savvy move, since an electric car can easily be built to outperform a gas car.

But battery technology is improving. It has a long way to go before Whitestar can become a reality, but that's why Tesla is planning the Whitestar third, rather than first.

I think the answers to your questions, for the Roadster, can be had from Tesla. For the Model S, those may not be answered until the engineering has come along further. And for Whitestar, it will probably depend on what battery technology does in the coming years.

Batteries are the biggest problem for Xebra owners. The LiFePO4 batteries that I have in both my Porsche and my Xebra are supposed to last 6 or 7 years and enough recharge cycles to match or exceed the expected life of the car. But they are expensive. I personally expect them to do better than the li-ion batteries in the Roadster, but li-ion is cheaper.

All very good questions, but only the future will be able to answer them. Right now, in June of 2009, electric cars are good for people with short commutes and people who can afford expensive batteries. If your commute is short you don't need expensive batteries.

[carz89]

I had the opportunity to closely look over and drive a Tesla Roadster a few days ago. The Menlo Park dealer also had a stripped-down model in the showroom with no body or interior, allowing you to see the inner workings and powertrain components. The Roadster is a remarkably simple car -- my evaluation is that the new Prius is 4 times more complex a vehicle in every respect except for the body. Amazing that it's 1/4th the cost!

I do think that the Tesla battery is expensive, but only on the order of $8,000 - $10,000 (out of a $110,000 roadster).

I think that the biggest reasons for the high cost are:

1. throwing part of the cost of R&D into the price of the car.
2. inefficiency of small numbers
3. carbon fiber body (most expensive true feature)
4. control electronics
5. aluminum frame
6. motor / generator
7. battery
8. leather interior
9. wheels/tires

let me know if you think I'm off base on any of these.

Interesting observation - the car (even though it's a convertible) seems to have a massive A/C system, taking up most of the space under the front hood. It runs all the time, according to the dealer, primarily to cool the battery and electronics.

[daniel]

Originally Posted by carz89

I had the opportunity to closely look over and drive a Tesla Roadster a few days ago.

WOW!!! I got to ride in one, but not drive it. This was two years ago.

Originally Posted by carz89

The Roadster is a remarkably simple car

Electric cars tend to be simple. The average ICE has about 3,417 moving parts while an electric motor has one moving part.

Originally Posted by carz89

the new Prius is 4 times more complex a vehicle in every respect except for the body. Amazing that it's 1/4th the cost!

No way to get around the cost of batteries right now. And don't forget that the Roadster is an extremely high-performance racing car with all the components matched to extended high speed and hard maneuvering. Compared to a Prius it's expensive, but compared to the Ferrari that it out-accelerates, it's cheap.

Originally Posted by carz89

Interesting observation - the car (even though it's a convertible) seems to have a massive A/C system, taking up most of the space under the front hood. It runs all the time, according to the dealer, primarily to cool the battery and electronics.

Yep, the use of li-ion batteries required the cooling because li-ion is thermally unstable and MUST be kept cool. By contract, the LiFePO4 in both of my electric cars is thermally stable and does not require cooling. But li-ion is cheaper and has somewhat greater energy density.

[JimN]

Tesla's warranty is 3 years/36000 miles.

[cycledrum]

Originally Posted by daniel

The Tesla Roadster is aimed at very rich people with big bucks to burn. That was intentional. It was the only way for a small company to get started, and a very savvy move, since an electric car can easily be built to outperform a gas car.

But battery technology is improving. It has a long way to go before Whitestar can become a reality, but that's why Tesla is planning the Whitestar third, rather than first.

I also think it was smart for Tesla to start with a high-end, provacative sports car for people with lots of discretionary income.

They are getting the electric car out there, showing that it is cool and very fast. Eventually, hopefully more people will get the idea that quiet, quick cars are cool too.

Obviously, the VW Jetta TDI advertisers don't get it, but that commercial was kinda funny.